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PostPosted: Mon 06 May 2024 3:32 pm 
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CanadaIrish wrote:
Btw I love Richard Barrett lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvpJFNQwX4

:guiness:

While I agree with most of what he says here, Barrett is simply playing his role in a contrived dialectic. The people behind communism (the ideology that Barrett espouses) are ultimately the same as the people behind the slaughter in Gaza. That's why Richard Boyd Barrett is apparently against the plantation of Palestine by foreigners (who in reality have no ancestral ties to that land), whereas he is all for the neo-plantation of Ireland.


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PostPosted: Mon 06 May 2024 7:10 pm 
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Caoilte wrote:
Ade wrote:
Not wishing to be pedantic, but I read before (maybe on this website?) that the phrase 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' is an anglicism and that the more correct phrase would be 'Beidh ár lá linn'. Anyway, I don't think this is important for the purposes of the OP.

--

Btw, the word 'Palaistín' strikes me as being a bit unusual. Words ending in 'ín' are masculine, whereas country names are (always?) feminine, so the word is a sort of a paradox.

Assuming that it is feminine, I would have expected its genitive form to end with a vowel i.e. 'na Palaistíne', instead of 'na Palaistín', which seems unusual.


Tiocfaidh ár lá is fine in Irish. It is a misconception that this is bad Irish. And it is indeed "na Palaistíne" in the genitive as the site tearma.ie shows....


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PostPosted: Mon 06 May 2024 7:20 pm 
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Caoilte wrote:
While I agree with most of what he says here, Barrett is simply playing his role in a contrived dialectic. The people behind communism (the ideology that Barrett espouses) are ultimately the same as the people behind the slaughter in Gaza. That's why Richard Boyd Barrett is apparently against the plantation of Palestine by foreigners (who in reality have no ancestral ties to that land), whereas he is all for the neo-plantation of Ireland.

Well, I'm not Irish, and so while I probably would agree with what Barrett said on Palestine, I would probably disagree on everything else. The idea that the Irish are particularly close to the Palestinians as they have had a similar history is nonsense - although some of these left-wing people say this. The UK didn't respond to the troubles by carpet-bombing the Falls Road and indeed everything west of the River Bann. Ultimately, the real struggle in Ireland (and England and everywhere in Europe) is against immigration - and constantly referring everything back to SF-style rhetoric is backward-looking and victim-mongering. We need a united struggle against immigration everywhere in Europe. England should be English. Ireland should be Irish. France should be French. And if we can all agree on that, we can advance as a continent. The Palestine issue is an example of the espousal of all Western governments of US foreign policy, including the deaths of hundreds of thousands in the Middle East (in the name of, gasp, democracy, if you can believe it). We shouldn't be part of that - but to argue the Palestinians should be transplanted to Ireland, or England even, is insane.

Someone described neo-conservatism - the US ideology - as "invade the world, invite the word". It is an imperialist perspective and not a national perspective. Globalism is the ideology of US hegemony. This includes endless foreign wars (and yes there are people over-represented in the US media and deep state who have ties to a certain Middle Eastern state and are not afraid to be as manipulative as possible in pursuing their own ethnocentric aims), and it includes mass immgration and multiculturalism. I reject the whole package. I think we have to accept the Israelis aren't going anywhere - many were born there - and the only viable thing is to create a single state with rights for all - but our main preoccupation should be our home nations - and that means zero immigration, and indeed fostering a large outflow.


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PostPosted: Tue 07 May 2024 1:28 am 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Caoilte wrote:
Ade wrote:
Not wishing to be pedantic, but I read before (maybe on this website?) that the phrase 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' is an anglicism and that the more correct phrase would be 'Beidh ár lá linn'. Anyway, I don't think this is important for the purposes of the OP.

--

Btw, the word 'Palaistín' strikes me as being a bit unusual. Words ending in 'ín' are masculine, whereas country names are (always?) feminine, so the word is a sort of a paradox.

Assuming that it is feminine, I would have expected its genitive form to end with a vowel i.e. 'na Palaistíne', instead of 'na Palaistín', which seems unusual.


Tiocfaidh ár lá is fine in Irish. It is a misconception that this is bad Irish. And it is indeed "na Palaistíne" in the genitive as the site tearma.ie shows....


I was scratching my head thinking "I don't remember ever writing that". :darklaugh:


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PostPosted: Tue 07 May 2024 2:04 am 
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Caoilte wrote:
Ade wrote:
But, then again, that's still odd. It's like talking to the physical ground, or the concept of the country, not the people who live there. I suspect that in Irish, if this kind of construction is possible at all, it's probably been a recent inheritance from English. A more natural way to say it in Irish is probably to alter the phrase slightly so as to literally address the people of the country:

Tiocfaidh bhur lá, a mhuintir na Palaistín = your day will come, people of Palestine


Not wishing to be pedantic, but I read before (maybe on this website?) that the phrase 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' is an anglicism and that the more correct phrase would be 'Beidh ár lá linn'. Anyway, I don't think this is important for the purposes of the OP.

--

Btw, the word 'Palaistín' strikes me as being a bit unusual. Words ending in 'ín' are masculine, whereas country names are (always?) feminine, so the word is a sort of a paradox.

Assuming that it is feminine, I would have expected its genitive form to end with a vowel i.e. 'na Palaistíne', instead of 'na Palaistín', which seems unusual.


Country names aren't always feminine. Sasana, Ceanada, and Meiriceá, for example, are all masculine. But the general rule is that they are feminine, yes.

The translation I gave above was based on the notion that words ending in -ín would act alike, and so Palestín must have been one of the rare exceptions. As djwebb has pointed out, though, it does in fact appear to be feminine, at least, according to online resources. Foclóir.ie gives this example: "the capital of Palestine príomhchathair na Palaistíne".

With that being said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if both masculine and feminine forms were used by native speakers. You get that with certain genitives and plurals, particularly where words are borrowed from foreign languages, or where they seem to be caught between two conflicting linguistic "rules", both of which are the case here. Palestín doesn't occur in either Dineen's dictionary or Ó Dónaill, but does in Tearma.ie and Foclóir.ie, which leads me to suspect that the feminine Palestíne could be a relatively modern concoction, perhaps created specifically because it was needed for use in government documents or in Brussels. If that's the case it could be an L2 speaker who came up with it based on the "country names are feminine" rule you referred to. I would hope, though, that it was based on what was being use by at least some group of native speakers.


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PostPosted: Tue 07 May 2024 3:47 am 
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Words in -ín are masculine if -ín is the diminutive suffix but not so if -ín is part of the stem.

An Phalaistín is not a "little palast". It derives from Latin Palæstina, feminine.
Other examples are an tSín, China, an Abaisín, Abbysinia, an tSairdín, Sardinia, or the German capital Beirlín, Berlin (Latin: Berolina), all feminine.

The fish sairdín is masculine because it derives from Latin sardina, already masculine there (Sardina pilchardus).


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PostPosted: Tue 07 May 2024 4:16 am 
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Labhrás wrote:
Words in -ín are masculine if -ín is the diminutive suffix but not so if -ín is part of the stem.

An Phalaistín is not a "little palast". It derives from Latin Palæstina, feminine.
Other examples are an tSín, China, an Abaisín, Abbysinia, an tSairdín, Sardinia, or the German capital Beirlín, Berlin (Latin: Berolina), all feminine.

The fish sairdín is masculine because it derives from Latin sardina, already masculine there (Sardina pilchardus).


So there's a precedent for Palestín being feminine. That's good, at least.

What's interesting to me is that you seem to be implying that nominal gender is borrowed along with the noun from another language. Not alone that, but even in words borrowed from English, which has no grammatical gender, it can still be worked out by looking to another language like Latin, from which the English terms are likely derived anyhow. In the case of historical borrowings from Latin directly into Irish, it seems reasonably plausible that the gender might have come over with the word. Where a borrowing is recent, though, as seems to be the case with Palestín, I wonder what mechanism governs the borrowing of gender. Is it something native speakers do intuitively, or do grammarians just decide to on the gender for one reason or another.


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PostPosted: Tue 07 May 2024 10:03 am 
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Labhrás wrote:
Words in -ín are masculine if -ín is the diminutive suffix but not so if -ín is part of the stem.

An Phalaistín is not a "little palast". It derives from Latin Palæstina, feminine.
Other examples are an tSín, China, an Abaisín, Abbysinia, an tSairdín, Sardinia, or the German capital Beirlín, Berlin (Latin: Berolina), all feminine.

The fish sairdín is masculine because it derives from Latin sardina, already masculine there (Sardina pilchardus).


There is some variation in such noun genders. Góislín, "gosling" (= a baby goose, Gänschen), is masculine in Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla, but feminine in the works I've read in Muskerry Irish. This is obviously a loan-word from English. It wouldn't be that surprising if there were some variation between native speakers on this.

Other words I've noted as unexpected in terms of gender: céibhín (little locket of hair, fillet), feminine; ceirtlín (ball of thread), feminine; dóithín (source of expectation, etc), feminine; réilthín (star), feminine; veidhlín (violin), feminine. These are only feminine in the works I've consulated, eg réilthín is feminine in Peadar Ua Laoghaire's Críost Mac Dé. I'm not saying that it could not be found masculine, but I do think there is some native-speaker inconsistency on this.


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PostPosted: Wed 08 May 2024 9:04 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Jamie wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
bhur is pronounced úr in Munster (oohr) - there is no "v".


The host of An Saol ó Dheas seems to consistentently say "Dé bhur mbeatha" at the start of episodes


In that case, maybe younger speakers tend to pronounce a large number of words in line with the spelling. Some of these younger native speakers can't understand their own grandparents' Irish... This is precisely why I'm editing this word as "úr" in my editions of Muskerry literature, to forestall new pronunciations and reading pronunciations. The phrase is Dé úr mbeatha if you're trying to speak like Peadar Ua Laoghaire and Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh. See p102 of Scéalaíocht Amhlaoibh: "Tá úr ndóthain airgid agamsa le túirt díbh".


Genuine clarification - what do you define as young in terms of Irish native speakers?
Helen from Saol ó Dheas is likely in her fifties/sixties and seems to have very strong Irish.
I've heard a few other Kerry folk (probably 50s+ also) on RnaG saying 'bhúr'.

Flip over to An Loingseach here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouAeZb9KIlU and he's clearly saying 'úr' (along with aríst - I love the extra 't' in there).
So it seems both pronunciations are probably acceptable, at least in modern native Irish.

Non-sequitur - is the 'r' in arís slender?! Going off An Loingseach it sounds it to me, but I could well be wrong.


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PostPosted: Wed 08 May 2024 9:37 pm 
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beepbopboop wrote:
Genuine clarification - what do you define as young in terms of Irish native speakers?
Helen from Saol ó Dheas is likely in her fifties/sixties and seems to have very strong Irish.
I've heard a few other Kerry folk (probably 50s+ also) on RnaG saying 'bhúr'.

Flip over to An Loingseach here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouAeZb9KIlU and he's clearly saying 'úr' (along with aríst - I love the extra 't' in there).
So it seems both pronunciations are probably acceptable, at least in modern native Irish.

Non-sequitur - is the 'r' in arís slender?! Going off An Loingseach it sounds it to me, but I could well be wrong.

Well, as I said, some people may have "reading" pronunciations. Think of English if someone pronounced "said" as "say-d" instead of "sedd" - that would be a reading pronunciation. The r in arís is slender.

You can copy the younger speakers, and as you say, there is a difference between the Irish of an RnG presenter who is totally comfortable with Irish, and other younger speakers who have anglicised pronunciation. I suppose I would be interested to know how Helen's grandparents pronounced the word "úr". Is anyone alive in Munster the equivalent of an Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh? The real question is whether the word has always been pronounced the way she says it in her village - or whether she copied it from learners in the Galltacht... After all, she is probably the product of a Gaeltacht school, and those schools push the new pronunciations.


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