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PostPosted: Mon 08 Jan 2024 8:59 pm 
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Ade wrote:
I'll play the devil's advocate here; I suppose that a distinction should be made between a claim like "Celtic languages are close to Indic languages" and "Celtic languages are similar to Indic languages". The former is demonstrably untrue, the latter may be demonstrated to be more or less true relative to other language groups.

Thank you. I made a point of saying "similar" because they are... in my subjective opinion.

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In other words, two languages or language groups may have similar features, but this does not necessitate that they are more closely related diachronically or philologically to each other than they are to other languages which do not share the same features. Irish and Welsh, for example, is are VSO languages, which is relatively unusual. They share this feature with Biblical Hebrew, Classical Arabic, Filipino and Māori, but obviously, they are not as closely related to any of these languages as they are to, say, Spanish or French, which do not have this feature.

Indeed, and the there have always been notions where people selectively choose a handful of features they find important simply because they support a theory they would like to be true -- eg. the Gaels being a lost tribe of Israel because of prepositional pronouns and the presence of a definite article without an indefinite one.
I'm aware of this, and I'm not presenting my preferred theory as an objective "truth".

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With that being said, I don't know what this stuff about the Indic and Celtic families being "the earliest to split off and migrate from the IE homeland" is about:

NiallBeag wrote:
In fact, I'm sure i saw one puported family tree that suggested the Indic and Celtic families were the earliest to split off and migrate from the IE homeland, because they were seen to share features that were thought to represent original features that were later lost in all the other branches (or to put it another way, they appeared to have fewer neologisms). However, I can't say whether that gained any widespread acceptance.

I feel I went to reasonable lengths to make it clear that I wasn't taking it as gospel, and not to present it as something that should be believed. The factual part was that I'd seen a claim. (A claim that I had previously presumed true, and it was looking for it today that made me stop to think about my own preconceptions.)
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NiallBeag wrote:
The fact that I've not found a family tree similar to the one I saw about 15 years ago suggests that either the new idea was largely found to be false, or the old false assumptions have just been published as truth so often that people accept them uncritically.


I think the family tree you saw about 15 years ago may need its branches pruned. One argument is significantly more plausible than the other.

Fair enough. One of my beefs about the internet these days is that people seem to forget that you can't have your preconceptions challenge without talking about them...

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PostPosted: Mon 08 Jan 2024 9:02 pm 
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Tum hamesha ye samasyaen kyon paida karate rahate hai! :LOL:


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PostPosted: Mon 08 Jan 2024 9:31 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
Indeed, and the there have always been notions where people selectively choose a handful of features they find important simply because they support a theory they would like to be true -- eg. the Gaels being a lost tribe of Israel because of prepositional pronouns and the presence of a definite article without an indefinite one.
I'm aware of this, and I'm not presenting my preferred theory as an objective "truth".


Yes, indeed. Some very strange notions have gone around. That particular theory, of course, was based on the story of the Milesians in Lebor Gabála Érenn, which was taken to be a more or less historical account even by serious scholars for quite a while. Naturally then, if this is already being treated as somewhat plausible historical account, and then linguistic commonalities are identified between Hebrew and Irish, this may reinforce a bias towards this account, as you suggest. It is, of course, very much treated like a fictitious fabrication rather than a historical account by modern scholars, and without that context the similarities between Hebrew and Irish are shown up for what they really are; an interesting coincidence, but not symptomatic of particularly close philological ties or particularly recent divergence.

NiallBeag wrote:
I feel I went to reasonable lengths to make it clear that I wasn't taking it as gospel, and not to present it as something that should be believed. The factual part was that I'd seen a claim. (A claim that I had previously presumed true, and it was looking for it today that made me stop to think about my own preconceptions.)


Yes, based on what you highlight, you certainly weren't dogmatic or anything. It did seem a little like you were leaning towards one side more so than the other, but of course, you're perfectly entitled to do so if you please.

NiallBeag wrote:
One of my beefs about the internet these days is that people seem to forget that you can't have your preconceptions challenge without talking about them...


I suspect some people don't like to challenge their own perceptions. Cognitive dissonance and all that.


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PostPosted: Mon 08 Jan 2024 9:48 pm 
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Ade wrote:
NiallBeag wrote:
One of my beefs about the internet these days is that people seem to forget that you can't have your preconceptions challenge without talking about them...


I suspect some people don't like to challenge their own perceptions. Cognitive dissonance and all that.

Why "suspect"...? It's a pretty self-evident truth -- that's why I was focusing on the other parties in the conversation.
Having the patience to explain why something is a misconception is getting rarer -- instead there's an attitude (often an explicit one) of "you're wrong, and I cannot correct you, so I must shout at you and insult you so that other people will know that if they believe what you say, then they too will be subject to verbal abuse and ridicule."

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PostPosted: Mon 08 Jan 2024 10:08 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
I must shout at you and insult you so that other people will know that if they believe what you say, then they too will be subject to verbal abuse and ridicule."

If only you had been subjected to verbal abuse and ridicule, you might have a point. I'm a great supporter of free speech, completely untrammelled, but a couple of threads here appear to have little high-quality information or views. I'm the first one to say you are ENTITLED to poorly-argued views. I would die in the ditch to defend your right to that.


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PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan 2024 6:57 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
NiallBeag wrote:
I must shout at you and insult you so that other people will know that if they believe what you say, then they too will be subject to verbal abuse and ridicule."

If only you had been subjected to verbal abuse and ridicule, you might have a point.
I have been subject to verbal abuse and ridicule. Loads of times. On the internet.

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PostPosted: Tue 09 Jan 2024 9:39 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
If only you had been subjected to verbal abuse and ridicule, you might have a point.
I have been subject to verbal abuse and ridicule. Loads of times. On the internet.


Ó, Dia linn! Nách mór an dochar a dheineann san duit!


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PostPosted: Wed 10 Jan 2024 10:05 am 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
NiallBeag wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
If only you had been subjected to verbal abuse and ridicule, you might have a point.
I have been subject to verbal abuse and ridicule. Loads of times. On the internet.


Ó, Dia linn! Nách mór an dochar a dheineann san duit!

And your point is, caller..?

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PostPosted: Sun 28 Jan 2024 11:05 pm 
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On the earlier subject of Irish's similarities to other languages. I have learned some languages from around the world, and I noticed a few interesting similarities between Gaelic and Pacific languages. Probably a coincidence, but it is interesting as I haven't noticed such similarities in other languages.

Such as the subject being introduced first before commenting on it further, and a pronoun proceeds. Such as ak raan mā ko raar kañaltok (I think that is right), lit. the frigate birds on top of the breadfruit tree they gathered around.
In the vocative case in Marshallese, "a" proceeds nouns (in Hawaiian, it is "e"). In certain sentences the word order is "Is (adjective) the (noun)" as in Irish. A very small detail is that "e" (pronounced ay) is used as the masculine and feminine pronoun.
With me, with you, etc is all one word as liom leat etc, ippād = with us, ad = our. Also, there isn't any set verb "have," it is expressed differently as in Irish.

Inne is a roughly shared word in Gaelic and Marshallese for yesterday. Lā means day in Hawaiian, and nā is used as a plural article.
Duolingo sentence: pūlehu ka tūtū kāne i ka 'ulu - word order is literally "broils the grandfather the breadfruit" similar to Irish.

Just in case you're interested, recording of Marshallese: https://mistories.org/sound/Mwekto-audio.mp3 text: https://mistories.org/life-Mwekto-text.php

Also, in Scandanavian languages, "this year" is expressed i år, (pronounced ee oor) lit. in year, as Irish i mbliadhna. I have also seen some other potential remnants of Norse influence on Irish in the past but can't remember them now.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jan 2024 11:03 pm 
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Ceanntuigheoireacht6 wrote:
In the vocative case in Marshallese, "a" proceeds nouns (in Hawaiian, it is "e").

In English the vocative was "o" before the noun until relatively recently. "O" or "u" in Italic languages, and though many have lost it, it's still active in some and does reappear in others where there's a particular desire to draw attention. There aren't all that many vowels to choose from in any given language...
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In certain sentences the word order is "Is (adjective) the (noun)" as in Irish.

Which certain sentences? There's a clear pattern in Irish that it only happens with copular clauses. There's a good chance that it's a hold-over from a time when more cases were explicitly marked and word order was freer. A change of sentence order from default VSO would have indicated a change of focus, and the copular could have stuck with the non-standard because of the pragmatic relationship between elements of the sentence.
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With me, with you, etc is all one word as liom leat etc, ippād = with us, ad = our. Also, there isn't any set verb "have," it is expressed differently as in Irish.

Not particularly surprising in a polysynthetic language. More surprising in the Celtic languages because they're not really polysynthetic.

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