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PostPosted: Tue 19 Dec 2023 11:34 am 
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It was my understanding that the dependent form of a verb is the one used with a particle e.g. "go raibh...", "cá raibh…", "ní raibh..." etc., however, in the past tense, traditional speakers in Corca Duibhne would say "do bhí...". Is this just an exception with the particle "do"? And if so does anybody know where the exception comes from and why one wouldn't say "do raibh..."?


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PostPosted: Tue 19 Dec 2023 12:01 pm 
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Jamie wrote:
It was my understanding that the dependent form of a verb is the one used with a particle e.g. "go raibh...", "cá raibh…", "ní raibh..." etc., however, in the past tense, traditional speakers in Corca Duibhne would say "do bhí...". Is this just an exception with the particle "do"? And if so does anybody know where the exception comes from and why one wouldn't say "do raibh..."?

"Do" takes the absolute. Maybe it's because "do" is not found in subordinate clauses or something like that?


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PostPosted: Tue 19 Dec 2023 1:15 pm 
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Jamie wrote:
It was my understanding that the dependent form of a verb is the one used with a particle e.g. "go raibh...", "cá raibh…", "ní raibh..." etc., however, in the past tense, traditional speakers in Corca Duibhne would say "do bhí...". Is this just an exception with the particle "do"? And if so does anybody know where the exception comes from and why one wouldn't say "do raibh..."?


There are particles/conjunctions requiring dependent forms:
e.g. ní, an, go, nach, dá, mura, a (indir. rel.), ...
And there are particles/conjunctions requiring independent (absolute) verb forms,
e.g. do, a (dir. rel.), (if), mar (because), óir (because), ...


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PostPosted: Tue 19 Dec 2023 3:50 pm 
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Jamie wrote:
It was my understanding that the dependent form of a verb is the one used with a particle e.g. "go raibh...", "cá raibh…", "ní raibh..." etc., however, in the past tense, traditional speakers in Corca Duibhne would say "do bhí...". Is this just an exception with the particle "do"? And if so does anybody know where the exception comes from and why one wouldn't say "do raibh..."?


The do particle of Munster Irish is probably best understood as an exception.

The history is as follows:

Old Irish had simple and compound verbs. Simple verbs (e.g. beirid "he brings") acted more or less like verbs in Modern Irish, but compound verbs had particles (e.g. do, ad) which were combined with the verb (e.g. do-beir "he gives", ad-cí "he sees"). This is comparable to compound verbs in English like "undercut", "overthrow" and "withdraw", which are compounds of particles ("under", "over" and "with") and simple verbs ("cut", "throw", and "draw").

If the direct object of a verb was expressed by a pronoun in Old Irish, it would be placed between the particle and the verb (e.g. do-m-beir "he gives me", a-tom-cí "he sees me"). This was fine for compound verbs, but it meant that simple verbs needed to have a dummy particle, no, that could be used only when they took a pronoun as a direct object (e.g. no-m-beir "he brings me"). Some of these pronouns lenited the following verb (1st and 2nd sg., as well as 3rd sg. neuter, i.e. "me", "thee", and "it") others caused eclipsis (3rd sg. masculine and feminine, as well as 3rd pl., i.e. "him", "her", and "they").

In the Middle Irish period, this verbal complex started to break down, and we eventually see that the 3rd sg. neuter pronoun starts to be infixed first to all active transitive verb forms, not really as a pronoun anymore, just as an indicator that the verb can take a direct object. It later spreads to all verbs excluding passive forms. Modern Irish in Munster continues to use do as a kind of dummy particle before verbs in the past tense, and the 3rd sg. neuter pronoun is fossilised in this particle, even though Modern Irish no longer has a neuter pronoun. The particle isn't used as frequently in the past tense in other dialects, but it can still be seen as an initial letter, d, before verbs starting with a vowel (e.g. d'ith, d'ardaigh, duairt, d'éirigh).

As I mentioned above, this 3rd sg. pronoun caused lenition in the following verb, and this is why in the past tense in Modern Irish verbs are lenited, even in other dialects where the particle do isn't used anymore.


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PostPosted: Tue 19 Dec 2023 4:17 pm 
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Thank you, Ade, for a great explanation. What was the original of the relative pronoun? Maybe roughly similar?


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PostPosted: Tue 19 Dec 2023 6:50 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Thank you, Ade, for a great explanation. What was the original of the relative pronoun? Maybe roughly similar?


Somewhat more complicated than it is in Modern Irish, I'm afraid, but interesting nonetheless.

Strictly speaking, Old Irish had a nasalising relative particle, (s)a, but its usage was very restricted. I was only used in constructions like di-a "to whom", or la-sa "with which", where the relation of the antecedent to the remainder of the relative clause is expressed using a preposition. It could also be found compounded with conjunctions like ara "in order that". This particle is itself probably a reflex of the Old Irish neuter article a (which also nasalised).

Aside from cases such as these, relativity in Old Irish was shown in a few different ways:

1. There were leniting relative clauses (e.g. for-chomnaccuir "which has happened", ro-chreitset "who have believed") and nasalising relative clauses (aimsire m-bítesom isind fognam "of the time which they are in the service", arndip maith n-airlethar a muintir "so that it is well that he may regulate his people"), whereby the relativity is only apparent by lenition or nasalisation of the verb following a preverbal particle which would not otherwise cause lenition or nasalisation.
2. Simple verbs in 3rd person had discrete relative forms.
3. Simple verbs for all other persons would be preceded by the dummy particle no.
4. Negative relative clauses had discrete negative relative particles nád, and nách (instead of ).
5. There is a class of infixed pronoun which are only used in relative clauses, e.g. no-don-nerta "which strengthens us" vs. no-n-nert "he strengthens us". Hence, if these pronominal forms were used as the direct objects, it could be understood that the clause was relative.

5.1. Note, the use of the particle no which occurs in both examples I just gave in point 5 is not the same as the particle I mentioned in point 3. The particle in point 3 is used without any following pronoun. This, by contrast, is the dummy particle which is used to prefix object pronouns to simple verbs, which I mentioned in my last post. As a simple verb, nertaid would have a discrete relative form in the 3rd sg., as per point 2. As such, this no does not indicate relativity in no-don-nerta, so relativity must instead be inferred from the pronoun, don.

5.2. As you can see, strictly speaking there was only one relative particle, but in fact other particles existed (negative ná/nád, dummy no) which could themselves imply relativity, and regular preverbs (do, ad, etc.) could be used to infix pronouns which would imply relativity. Even by the Old Irish period, though, this complex system was beginning to break down, and sometimes infixed pronouns other than those of the specific class mentioned in point 5 would be used. In these cases relativity had to be inferred from the context.

I suspect the reason you ask is out of interest as to where the modern Irish relative particles a and do originated, and how they relate to each other. Unfortunately, it's not very clear by looking back to the Old Irish system how either of these came to be, and I'm afraid I can only conjecture.

It's tempting to conclude that the modern relative particle, a, might be traced back to the Old Irish relative particle, also a. If this is the case, though, it's very hard to explain the loss of nasalisation and development of lenition in the Modern Irish particle. So, this explanation seems unlikely.

I think, instead, the explanation is probably related to the development of the modern Munster particle do. In the same way as do acts as a dummy particle to support a fossilised 3rd sg. neuter pronoun, and this pronoun is responsible for lenition in the past tense in Modern Irish (even in dialects where the particle do is no longer used), I think we can probably trace both of the modern relative particles back to the neuter pronoun also.

In Old Irish, this neuter 3rd sg. pronoun was a leniting a. While this pronoun is not of the class mentioned in point 5 above, which are always relative, by the time the Old Irish verbal system was breaking down it was quite common for pronouns from other classes to be used in relative clauses also, as I mentioned in point 5.2. When compounded with certain Old Irish preverbs, like do and the dummy particle no, this pronoun would have rendered the combinations da and na respectively. By the Middle Irish period, when the system was in decay, the forms with and without attached pronouns likely became indistinct, probably being pronounced the same way ( and ). This is how the Modern Irish do developed, however, at the same time as this was emerging the Old Irish system for showing relativity would have been falling apart because it relied heavily on the now-defunct verbal complex, so it seems likely that these indistinct pronominal forms which emerged also produced a relative do at the same time.

This is where we get a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. It seems likely that Munster Irish just applied relativity to the particle do, which was already in use with past tense verbs. The other dialects may have adopted the Old Irish 3rd sg. neuter pronoun, leniting a, directly, or alternatively, they may have originally used relative do and later switched to a. Given the spread of non-relative do to all dialects, as evidenced by lenition in the past tense and vowel-initial verbs which retain d', I'm inclined to suspect it's the latter.

Whichever the case may be, though, I think the retention of relative a in other dialects was likely supported by the survival of the discrete relative form of the substantive verb, atá. As such, when the non-relative do forms were dropped in other dialects, the relative a may have been retained by analogy with the substantive verb, even where the non-relative particle do was dropped entirely.


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PostPosted: Tue 19 Dec 2023 9:59 pm 
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Thank you. Old Irish seems hugely complicated compared with the modern language. but what about relativity shown just by lenition with no relative pronoun? Maybe that is simply by omission of the pronoun once the pronoun had developed?


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PostPosted: Tue 19 Dec 2023 10:56 pm 
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If it's useful "do" is now marked in the past tense. So there is a difference in meaning between:

Bhí sé ag rith... = He was running...

and

Do bhí sé ag rith... = So, he was running...

Fortson has a nice overview of the complexities of Old Irish in his book "Indo-European language and Culture". I've only learned the language to the level covered in Sean-Gheailge gan dua by Pádraig Ó Fiannachta.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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PostPosted: Thu 21 Dec 2023 12:42 am 
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Thank you all, that's very interesting and informative


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