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PostPosted: Sun 19 Nov 2023 10:37 pm 
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They barely notice it and I have never met someone who cared about this particular change.

Thank you that's awesome!

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That's interesting, I have never heard "an gcuais."

This was a surprise to me too. There's a bit of an explanation of it from a muskerry perspective here:
https://corkirish.wordpress.com/verb-conjugation/teim/

I'd guess you might have the "Simple past alternative" version in your Irish?


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PostPosted: Sun 19 Nov 2023 11:54 pm 
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beepbopboop wrote:
This was a surprise to me too. There's a bit of an explanation of it from a muskerry perspective here:
https://corkirish.wordpress.com/verb-conjugation/teim/

I'd guess you might have the "Simple past alternative" version in your Irish?

That is the historically correct dependent form of the verb. I think I would now write go ndeigh sé and not go ndeaghaidh sé.


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PostPosted: Mon 20 Nov 2023 9:17 pm 
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beepbopboop wrote:
Quote:
They barely notice it and I have never met someone who cared about this particular change.

Thank you that's awesome!

Quote:
That's interesting, I have never heard "an gcuais."

This was a surprise to me too. There's a bit of an explanation of it from a muskerry perspective here:
https://corkirish.wordpress.com/verb-conjugation/teim/

I'd guess you might have the "Simple past alternative" version in your Irish?


Go ndeinis
Go dtáinigheas

I say, but "gur chuadhais," not "go gcuadhais" and not go ndeaghais. I suppose this is a Waterford thing. My Irish is a lot simpler than Cork Irish I suppose, the genitives are very relaxed, i.e. "ag gabhailt an tslí" can be heard most often (wrong genitive) and stuff like that, subjunctive and dative case (I have recently found out what that means from this forum) have largely fallen out of use except for a few words even in my old dialect. Really though Peadar Ua Laoghaire/Cork Irish is a lot better for reviving Irish.

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I recommend to learn Irish pronunciation on doegen.ie
Scottish Gaelic pronunciation on tobarandualchais.co.uk


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PostPosted: Mon 20 Nov 2023 11:30 pm 
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Ceanntuigheoireacht6 wrote:
I say, but "gur chuadhais," not "go gcuadhais" and not go ndeaghais. I suppose this is a Waterford thing. My Irish is a lot simpler than Cork Irish I suppose, the genitives are very relaxed, i.e. "ag gabhailt an tslí" can be heard most often (wrong genitive) and stuff like that, subjunctive and dative case (I have recently found out what that means from this forum) have largely fallen out of use except for a few words even in my old dialect. Really though Peadar Ua Laoghaire/Cork Irish is a lot better for reviving Irish.


I think the simplest and most obvious thing would be to make Gaeilge (???) Chorca Dhuibhne by Diarmuid Ó Sé the official caighdéan. Kerry Irish has more speakers and this is quite close to Muskerry Irish, in fact.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Nov 2023 10:10 am 
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I say, but "gur chuadhais," not "go gcuadhais" and not go ndeaghais.

Out of interest, for deir would you use go nabróidh sé/go nabróinn etc. for the dependant in future and conditional?
I spent a year in Ring (fad an lá anois!) and some of the remenants of the Irish I learned remain, and one thing I did on reflex a few months back was use both those forms (but never the abr- stem in the past, present etc.) - although apparently they are quite rare.
Seemingly not used for the most part in cork anyway, even back in the day: https://corkirish.wordpress.com/verb-co ... on/deirim/
The teacher I had was an old school real-deal strong Ring native speaker and, if she's still alive would be well into her 80s I'd say - so maybe that aligns with your Irish more.

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the genitives are very relaxed, i.e. "ag gabhailt an tslí" can be heard most often (wrong genitive) and stuff like that

I could definitely understand the genitive relaxing in instances like these where there's no real need to show the relation between the verbal noun and following noun.
But would this extend to noun on noun phrases like "dath an uibh" where you might say "dath an t-ubh" or something instead? Or if ubh is feminine for you, you might say "dath an ubh" instead of saying "dath na huibhe"?
Lastly, where the genetive is "relaxed" as you say, is it the case that native speakers such as yourself know the correct genitive and it sounds "better" to their ear when used?
I could think of similar examples in English like this ó thaobh gramadaí.

Quote:
I think the simplest and most obvious thing would be to make Gaeilge (???) Chorca Dhuibhne by Diarmuid Ó Sé the official caighdéan. Kerry Irish has more speakers and this is quite close to Muskerry Irish, in fact.

As a ex-fluent speaker/current re-learner it would be nice to have a standard agreed across munster.
Munster Irish is largely consistent even if Ring has some differences.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Nov 2023 12:54 pm 
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For abródh yes, I used to anyway, but I don't live in Waterford and I've picked a few things up from other dialects, mainly West Munster, that I've been exposed a lot to - déarfadh is one of them.
That's great, those are the kind of people who should be teachers.
No, the correct genitive is used in those cases.
I wouldn't say it sounds better at least to me, "na slí" than "an tslí" and stuff like that, but I do view Peadar Ua Laoghaire 's more proper Irish as better than mine in general, with all the correct cases and etc.
I know the correct genitives myself, but it is indifferent to me in sentences like "ag gabhailt an tslí/na slí" but I would view "dath an t-ubh" as bad Irish personally but I cannot speak for anyone else.


Last edited by Ceanntuigheoireacht6 on Thu 23 Nov 2023 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 23 Nov 2023 1:03 pm 
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Ag gabháil an bhóthair - this has an bóthar in the genitive, governed by the verbal noun
Ag gabháil an bóthar - this is also correct, with has an bóthar as an adverbial phrase almost.

[I think you could argue that an bóthar is in the accusative of specification, but functionally adverbial.]

both are found in Peadar Ua Laoghaire's works.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Nov 2023 1:10 pm 
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Ag gabhailt an bóthar
Lár an bhóthair

for me. Interesting that PUL has these variations in what he writes, I wonder if he did that in his speech for not much of a reason also?


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Nov 2023 2:52 pm 
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For abródh yes

Ah cool, so you didn't use it in the future, just conditional? Phew, I no longer feel like I am going crazy. I was half thinking I just made something up!

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That's great, those are the kind of people who should be teachers.

She was great but, in some ways I think she was probably constrained by the Irish she was forced to teach.
For example, throughout that year I had never heard any of the past tense synthetic forms outside of the 1st person plural - (bhíomair etc.) and I'm 90% sure we were taught that with a broad r (as per CO Irish), at least that's the spelling we were taught.
So imagine my surprise more recently where I started coming across bhíos, bhís and the like.
What really surprised me was reading about the 3rd person plural bhíodar and then hearing it for the first time from a Galway speaker on rnag!!!
The only synthetic form we were taught in the future tense was 3rd person singular (beimíd), so nothing like bead and beid, but I'm not sure if these are/were common in Ring or not.
The conditional and past habitual were all synthetic though as you'd expect.

Furthermore I had never come across stuff like do dh'éirigh mé/do dh'éiríos as you mentioned in another post - it was all d'éirigh instead.

Looking back on the experience now, as well as being able to see how the real language is actually spoken, it does sadden me that I was taught a white-washed version of it by a speaker who probably had to force herself to talk in a different way to accomodate the syllabus for the state exams.

I would love nothing more now than to be able to blast out idiomatic Gaeltacht Irish.

Quote:
but I would view "dath an t-ubh" as bad Irish personally but I cannot speak for anyone else.

Yeah this makes a lot of sense, thanks.

Quote:
[I think you could argue that an bóthar is in the accusative of specification, but functionally adverbial.]

I think this is beyond my ability right now, but thanks for weighing in. It's good to know it's correct in some circumstances.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Nov 2023 5:58 pm 
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Regarding genitives, one thing to bear in mind is that in traditional Muskerry Irish, genitives of nouns in -acht were not used or not always used, eg. Radio na Gaeltacht. Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh's Irish has many examples of this. This only amounts to not saying a final -a.


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