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 Post subject: Gaoluinn na nDéise
PostPosted: Thu 02 Nov 2023 9:53 pm 
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Question: "Do dh'éirigheamair" is the spoken form in the Déise instead of "d'éirigheamair." is this used other places? And this applies to all vowel-starting verbs of course.

Some other notes on the dialect below just in case anyone is interested. If not, just skip over this its just my bored ramblings.
"Ainnsint" is the pronunciation of "innsint," "baing" is "binn," "aim" is "im." My favourite is "daingnÉar" (with the é and "a" distinct sounds and the r is rolled) for "dinnéar." Slender r's are pronounced most similar to between an r and a d. R in rádh is slender.
"Nach" instead of "acht."
"Nín" instead of "ní'l."
-Ach endings are pronounced usually like -a without the kh sound or even a soft -o.
"Go" and "ní" instead of "gur" and "níor." E.g. "ní dh'éirigheas" instead of "níor éirigheas."
"Thá" and "thá." (athá)
"B'fhuil" instead of "bhfuil" and "an bhfuil."
Sometimes "uair" is said instead of "'nuair" but both are fine.
Forms like "a bhíonn?" instead of "an mbíonn" can be heard.
"Dé chúis" is used more commonly but alongside "cad in a thaobh."
Stuff is skipped over e.g. "folach" - "flach."
+ all the regular Munster differences.

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Séamus Ó h-Uiginn

Cainnteóir dúṫċais - Ṫá seana-ċainnt na nDéise agam

L1 Speaker - I speak an old dialect of Déise Irish


Last edited by Ceanntuigheoireacht6 on Fri 03 Nov 2023 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gaoluinn na nDéise
PostPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2023 12:30 am 
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Location: Corcaigh
Ceanntuigheoireacht6 wrote:
Question: "Do dh'éirigheamair" is the spoken form in the Déise instead of "d'éirigheamair." is this used other places? And this applies to all vowel-starting verbs of course.


I didn't know that.

I'm afraid I'm not going to be of much help identifying other places it's used, if anywhere. But I am quite interested in its formation. If I'm not mistaken the particle, do, which precedes past tense verbs in Munster Irish is the same as the d' which occurs before vowels in the past tense of Irish verbs more generally. That being the case the use of both here seems to be somewhat redundant. Evidence of some historical meeting of dialects perhaps? Or the result of speakers assuming the verb was irregular and began with a d in the past tense, hence, requiring the addition of the particle?


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 Post subject: Re: Gaoluinn na nDéise
PostPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2023 2:00 am 
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Posts: 872
Ceanntuigheoireacht6 wrote:
Question: "Do dh'éirigheamair" is the spoken form in the Déise instead of "d'éirigheamair." is this used other places? And this applies to all vowel-starting verbs of course.

Some other notes on the dialect below just in case anyone is interested. If not, just skip over this its just my bored ramblings.
"Ainnsint" is the pronunciation of "innsint," "baing" is "binn," "aim" is "im." My favourite is "daingnÉar" (with the é and "a" distinct sounds and the r is rolled) for "dinnéar." Slender r's are pronounced most similar to between an r and a d. R in rádh is slender.
"Nach" instead of "acht."
"Nín" instead of "ní'l."
-Ach endings are pronounced usually like -a without the kh sound or even a soft -o.
"Go" and "ní" instead of "gur" and "níor." E.g. "ní dh'éirigheas" instead of "níor éirigheas."
"Thá" and "thá." (athá)
"B'fhuil" instead of "bhfuil" and "an bhfuil."
Sometimes "uair" is said instead of "'nuair" but both are fine.
Forms like "a bhíonn?" instead of "an mbíonn" can be heard.
"Dé chúis" is used more commonly but alongside "cad in a thaobh."
Stuff is skipped over e.g. "folach" - "flach."
+ all the regular Munster differences.


I think Peig Sayer also has "do dh'éirigh sé".
Bínn - I think the b still slender, which "bainn" doesn't show. Beaidhinn?


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 Post subject: Re: Gaoluinn na nDéise
PostPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2023 3:29 am 
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Location: Corcaigh
djwebb2021 wrote:

I think Peig Sayer also has "do dh'éirigh sé".
Bínn - I think the b still slender, which "bainn" doesn't show. Beaidhinn?


I was told, some years ago, by a bean an tí whose family had been evacuated from the Blaskets, that many people from West Kerry settled in Rinn, in Waterford after that. She claimed that Waterford and Dingle Irish have a lot of commonalities not shared by Muskerry speakers for that reason. Perhaps this is one of them.

I don't suppose you know how early it's been recorded in Waterford?


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 Post subject: Re: Gaoluinn na nDéise
PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov 2023 10:19 am 
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Ade wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:

I think Peig Sayer also has "do dh'éirigh sé".
Bínn - I think the b still slender, which "bainn" doesn't show. Beaidhinn?


I was told, some years ago, by a bean an tí whose family had been evacuated from the Blaskets, that many people from West Kerry settled in Rinn, in Waterford after that. She claimed that Waterford and Dingle Irish have a lot of commonalities not shared by Muskerry speakers for that reason. Perhaps this is one of them.

I don't suppose you know how early it's been recorded in Waterford?


I never knew that some people in Rinn came from the Blaskets. That may partly explain why there is an established Gaeltacht there. It would be interesting to find out more.

In this handy little book, Seana-Chaint na nDéise II, "dh" rather than only "d" for the past tense seems to be the rule, but there is no "do" before it. Maybe that came from the Blaskets.

The publication from the Gaeltacht in An Rinn, An Linn Bhuí, sometimes has word lists of local spellings and usages like those given above. Once in a while they will publish a text as it was originally partially written "phonetically":

anoish aha se reaite cotianta air fuaid na duha, go vuil daoine yes na poroisde seo, a buil a mbannai le hairgid agen a ttiornaha agus go be marga na ttiarnaha leo, no ya ttuarach gealuint eigin yen sort, na hiarfai an targud 20, ma haurodis a vote insa tsligh bo vaih len a tta agus [a ryadish na gcuiniv "cealaithe"] [thuas: sasodish iad attaov a vota] go mbainfai yiv é - anoish go dean fraing aha aguini a leabhor a vionugh yon vuintir seo?


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 Post subject: Re: Gaoluinn na nDéise
PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov 2023 12:19 pm 
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Do dh' + vowel is fairly common in Corca Dhuibhne.
Similarly thá, go/ní rather than gur/níor.
Dé chúis is also used.

Finally skipping an unstressed vowel is quite common in Kerry Irish, e.g. barróg -> bróg

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 Post subject: Re: Gaoluinn na nDéise
PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov 2023 12:23 pm 
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Peig also said nín quite often too, as well as nach in "nach aon" (=gach aon).


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 Post subject: Re: Gaoluinn na nDéise
PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov 2023 1:00 pm 
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Posts: 87
Ah thank you! Seems my Irish might be a Blasket import, interesting. But "nach aon" isnt said in mine as "nach" only means but. To clarify, she said "nín" as in "=níl?" I could have sworn that was a Déise only thing.

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Séamus Ó h-Uiginn

Cainnteóir dúṫċais - Ṫá seana-ċainnt na nDéise agam

L1 Speaker - I speak an old dialect of Déise Irish


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 Post subject: Re: Gaoluinn na nDéise
PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov 2023 2:32 pm 
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Ceanntuigheoireacht6 wrote:
Ah thank you! Seems my Irish might be a Blasket import, interesting. But "nach aon" isnt said in mine as "nach" only means but. To clarify, she said "nín" as in "=níl?" I could have sworn that was a Déise only thing.


Yes, nín for níl is frequently heard in the CDs of her Irish attached to Labharfad le Cách.

Dónall Bán Ó Céileachair for Muskerry has nín for níl in one passage in the Doegen recordings.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaoluinn na nDéise
PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov 2023 4:44 pm 
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Ceanntuigheoireacht6 wrote:
Ah thank you! Seems my Irish might be a Blasket import, interesting. But "nach aon" isnt said in mine as "nach" only means but. To clarify, she said "nín" as in "=níl?" I could have sworn that was a Déise only thing.

There's a few features where the Déise and West Corca Dhuibhne group together, with those features being much rarer in East Corca Dhuibhne and Cork. Similarly there are traits Cork and the Déise share that are only rarely found in all of Corca Dhuibhne.

These shared features would be found all the way back in the 19th century, they're just general tendencies in Munster Irish.

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