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PostPosted: Tue 31 Oct 2023 9:29 pm 
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The woman is definitely a native speaker of Clare Irish and the interviewer sounds like an educated speaker of Kerry Irish. Either somebody from Corca Dhuibhne or of the generation of students from Cork City who learned it to a high standard that one used to hear on the radio from the 70s-90s.

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PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov 2023 7:00 pm 
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Ade wrote:
Ceanntuigheoireacht6 wrote:
Maybe everyone's already seen this, but I think it's really cool. If you get bored, make sure to skip to the other person as well if you're interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iGQwXEUDpM&t=11s


Funnily enough, I just came upon this myself last week. I wonder is this the Irish native to Clare as it had developed since time immemorial, or is it the variety brought with people settling in Clare from the Aran Islands?


The Irish of both interviewees (as well of the interviewer) is firmly Munster Irish, in my opinion. Both interviewees indicated that they grew up in the locality. In fact the woman said she'd never been to Galway, and in fact and never been beyond Ennis.

I heard very little of what could be considered Connacht traits from the interviewees. However, the first interviewee did pronounce the words 'currach' 'earrach' and 'bealach' with the stress on the first syllable. And they both seemed to use the word 'goil' instead of 'dul'' on one occasion each, which supposedly originated as a blend of 'dul' and 'gabháil', and which is used in Connamara (and, I'm guessing, the Aran islands). The woman also pronounced Gaillimh as if spelt 'Gaile'. Not sure if this is a Connacht thing.

Interestingly, the Aran Islands were once part of Clare but, due to a referendum in approx. the 1930s, they seceded from Clare and joined Galway. They presumably regarded themselves as having more in common with south Conamara from a social and economic (and dialectical) perspective. Although the Irish of the most easterly of the three Aran Islands, Inis Oírr supposedly has some Munster influences and I think there are boat services from Clare to Inis Oírr.

At the end of the video, the old woman is having her dinner in what had been the school house and where, according to the narrator, she had gone to school more than 80 years previously. When asked about it, she poignantly comments 'Céad míle slán leis an uair sin'.


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PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov 2023 7:19 pm 
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Yes I agree completely about the interviewees. It was the interviewer that sounded funny to me originally but maybe its just a generational difference as suggested. My guess about the Conamara features of the first one's speech is time spent in Galway. As a Munster speaker I pick stuff up from other dialects myself.

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PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov 2023 7:24 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Caoilte wrote:
The only other non-Munster pronuncation from him that stood out for me was when has said 'Cuan na Gaillimhe', while addressing the viewers. In Connacht (and I'm guessing in Ulster too) 'Gaillimhe' is pronounced as it is written, whereas in Munster it is pronounced 'Gaillí'. He pronounced it the Connacht way. Maybe he did this deliberately in order to be better understood by viewers from up the country.

I think Gaillí makes sense in the phonology of Munster Irish, and maybe that pronunciation is shown by Peadar Ua Laoghaire's spelling Gaillmhe (with no i before the v) in his Lughaidh Mac Con.

But I found Gailivi as the transcription in Leitiriú Shímplí. I believe that was in the LS version of Ár nDóithin Araon, but the book is in a box somewhere and it would take hours to locate it.

Maybe Shán Ó Cuív thought it was Gailivi, when it is Gailí? Or maybe he heard the word more frequently from Galway speakers and presumed that their pronunciation was right?


Maybe there are parts of Munster where 'Gaillimhe' would be pronounced and spelt. But I know I have definitely heard 'Gaillí' from Munster speakers and, as you say, that would fit the phonology of Munster Irish.

Recently enough, I was travelling in north-west Co. Tipperary and I came across a signpost for a village called Drom Inbhir, situated on the shores of Lough Derg. I usually would read the Irish first. But I was confused when I then saw that the English version was 'Dromineer'. At first, I struggled to understand how 'Inbhir' in Irish has become 'Ineer' in English. Later I realised that the English version probably reflected the local pronuncation of 'Inbhir', which would presumably have developed as follows: Inbhir -> Inibhir (insertion of epenthetic vowel) -> Inír (dropping of bh or mh sound when it falls between two vowels, as per Munster Irish)


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PostPosted: Sat 04 Nov 2023 7:38 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
The woman is definitely a native speaker of Clare Irish and the interviewer sounds like an educated speaker of Kerry Irish. Either somebody from Corca Dhuibhne or of the generation of students from Cork City who learned it to a high standard that one used to hear on the radio from the 70s-90s.


I definitely agree that the interviewer speaks Irish to a high standard and I had suspected that he might be from Kerry.

I'm curious about your comment that he sounds like someone you'd hear on the radio from the 70s to the 90s. Do you think accents have changed since then?


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PostPosted: Mon 06 Nov 2023 3:14 pm 
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Caoilte wrote:
I definitely agree that the interviewer speaks Irish to a high standard and I had suspected that he might be from Kerry.

I'm curious about your comment that he sounds like someone you'd hear on the radio from the 70s to the 90s. Do you think accents have changed since then?

Yes, modern CD speakers would have a slightly different pronunciation and quite different grammar to the interviewer. Even for the time the interviewer is grammatically conservative.

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PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov 2023 8:35 am 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
Caoilte wrote:
I definitely agree that the interviewer speaks Irish to a high standard and I had suspected that he might be from Kerry.

I'm curious about your comment that he sounds like someone you'd hear on the radio from the 70s to the 90s. Do you think accents have changed since then?

Yes, modern CD speakers would have a slightly different pronunciation and quite different grammar to the interviewer. Even for the time the interviewer is grammatically conservative.


Out of interest, which features would you say are grammatically conservative? And would you say they are conservative relative to the Irish of the interviewees also?

The interviewer's Irish reminds me of Séamus Ó Catháin in this piece, which must be from about the same time. I wonder would you say they both share the same kind of grammatical conservatism, and is this the result of having studied Irish as L2 speakers.


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PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov 2023 12:56 pm 
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Ade wrote:
Out of interest, which features would you say are grammatically conservative?

Using the plural of adjectives, using the genitive where it traditionally occurred.

Ade wrote:
And would you say they are conservative relative to the Irish of the interviewees also?

It's about the same. The woman uses the genitive after sórd for example.

Ade wrote:
The interviewer's Irish reminds me of Séamus Ó Catháin in this piece, which must be from about the same time. I wonder would you say they both share the same kind of grammatical conservatism

It's hard to say there. Ó Catháin is often only saying very simple sentences or quoting aspects of a run/rothag.

Ade wrote:
is this the result of having studied Irish as L2 speakers.

Not really. Not to say he is L1 or L2, but how conservative somebody's speech is varies wildly between neighbours and even members of the same family. It can be a function of how often they read, what they read, in what way they used Irish and English at home and many other things.

I know two lads who grew up together, mid-30s, one of them has almost 19th century grammar, the other one only uses the genitive or plurals of adjectives in stock phrases.

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PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov 2023 10:04 am 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
Ade wrote:
is this the result of having studied Irish as L2 speakers.

Not really. Not to say he is L1 or L2, but how conservative somebody's speech is varies wildly between neighbours and even members of the same family. It can be a function of how often they read, what they read, in what way they used Irish and English at home and many other things.

I know two lads who grew up together, mid-30s, one of them has almost 19th century grammar, the other one only uses the genitive or plurals of adjectives in stock phrases.

I know opinions will vary. I'd like the Irish taught more widely to be based on the more conservative speakers. The Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh's of the current day.

In fact, my stand-out top option would be for Diarmuid Ó Sé's Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne to be declared the new CO.

Does your guy with 19th century grammar have a rolled r? And the other guy use the English r? I like Dara Ó Cinnéide's pronunciation on the Fuaimeanna website.


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PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov 2023 11:36 am 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
In fact, my stand-out top option would be for Diarmuid Ó Sé's Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne to be declared the new CO.


The title of the book always seemed strange to me, given "Gaeilge" isn't Corca Dhuibhne Irish.


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