It is currently Sun 14 Jul 2024 9:12 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu 07 Sep 2023 9:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 07 Sep 2023 8:58 am
Posts: 2
Is there a way to find out what the pre-moderisation Irish name of a place was, like in the 14th century? (I'm thinking that would be Middle Irish). I'm especially interested in the place now known as Caherconlish / Cathair Chinn Lis, earlier usually Cahirconlish, and called in Middle English Catherkenlyshe when it was incorporated in 1358. It's in the barony of Clanwilliam, Co. Limerick, Munster.

Without the first element (Cathair/Caher/Cahir 'fort') the name appears to be exactly cognate with the Old Irish (back to 8th century) personal name Cuindlis, Cuindilis, Cuinlis, Cuindleas, Cuindleas, Coinleisc among other spellings, which has been anglicised into dozens of modern surname spellings like Conlisk, Candlish, Cunless, Quinlist, etc.

Since around 1990, I've run into genealogists and such thinking it means 'head of the enclosure'. Sure enough, Cathair Chinn Lis translates to 'fort of the head of the enclosure', and is said (e.g. at Wikipedia) to mean 'headland' by 'head', though 'leader/owner' is also a plausible interpretation of the 'head' element (same goes for its Welsh and Gaulish cognates pen and pennos, respectively, which sometimes referred to a person and sometimes to a land form and sometimes to just the body part).

It would be of value to see a transitional, Middle Irish version of this place name. And even 19th-century and earlier versions, before the spelling reforms. I can find Old Irish info on the elements that make up this name, at DIL.ie, but there's a gap between the earliest source material and the place-name spelling used today since the mid-20th century.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 07 Sep 2023 3:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1200
Try these:
https://www.logainm.ie/Iomhanna/po1516_1.jpg
https://www.logainm.ie/Iomhanna/po1516_5.jpg

This is from the official Irish placenames site - and these are records they quote to back up their version of the placename. Clearly it is based on an earlier card index.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 09 Sep 2023 12:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 07 Sep 2023 8:58 am
Posts: 2
Thank you, that was just the sort of material I was looking for - spellings people might find in older local- and family-history research materials. I've ensured that all the variant spellings redirect at Wikipedia to the article at "Caherconlish".


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ade, beepbopboop, Bing [Bot] and 22 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group