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PostPosted: Tue 15 Aug 2023 9:22 am 
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DarOv wrote:
Ade wrote:

"Hoping for a fate with someone" also reads a bit strangely. Generally people talk about being fated to be with someone, but not to "have a fate with" someone. It almost implies that a person could have more than one fate, though any possibility of a plurality of fates would be an oxymoron as fate, by definition, requires only a single predetermined outcome which will happen. In other words, you can't have "a fate", but you could instead refer just to "fate" on its own, or to "my fate", "your fate", etc.


I disagree with that. I like the idea that a person can have multiple fates. And only he chooses which one to follow. I think it creates some opportunity to avoid a fatalistic view of life.
After all, this is a lyric, not a science. Let there be multiple fates, why not? :)

Other than that, you made a good point.


Well put. As for "other than that", the poems of Pablo Neruda (just giving one poet out of thousands of examples) have been directly translated into multiple languages, one poem parts of which I will give examples below, translated directly into English:

YO NO TENGO SOLEDAD I am not alone

Es la noche desamparo The night is helplessness
. . .
Pero yo, la que te estrecha But I, the one who rocks you
. . .

Es el cielo desamparo The sky is helplessness
. . .

Es el mundo desamparo The world is helplessness

The night, the sky, the world are helplessness. What nonsense! :razz:

And the Beatles, specifically John Lennon, were well known for the odd phrase.

Pearl, if you can wait a bit, I (or someone else) can give you a translation of what you wanted originally and/or the new revised version. Then you can do with them as you wish. Of course, paying attention to criticism is important and you will always want to consider those opinions seriously.


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PostPosted: Tue 15 Aug 2023 11:17 am 
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Yes, I understand.


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PostPosted: Tue 15 Aug 2023 12:46 pm 
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Location: Corcaigh
DarOv wrote:
I disagree with that. I like the idea that a person can have multiple fates. And only he chooses which one to follow. I think it creates some opportunity to avoid a fatalistic view of life.


I too like the notion that a person can influence their future by their present actions/choices, but I think that very notion is incompatible with the meaning of "fate". Perhaps what we're actually discussing here requires another term, like "destiny", "path", or "chance", which allows for the possibility of present actions altering later outcomes, unlike "fate". As I mentioned, though, I'm not sure whether this is what OP intended, so I'd need more context before I could provide an appropriate translation.

As for fate and fatalism, they are necessarily related concepts. To "avoid a fatalistic view of life" one needs to reject the notion of a single fated outcome, i.e. fate, because accepting the concept of fate is, by definition, fatalism. You seem to be conflating a rejection of this concept with redefining the term "fate" itself, however, if you were to accept a different meaning for the term "fate", one which allows more than one possible outcome, you would then end up with a lexical gap and would require another word to describe the viewpoint which necessarily results in adopting a fatalistic viewpoint.

DarOv wrote:
After all, this is a lyric, not a science. Let there be multiple fates, why not? :)


I'm not the word police. People can use language however they will. I'm just unsure how to translate such abstract notions without OP being more specific as to what was meant.

tiomluasocein wrote:

Well put. As for "other than that", the poems of Pablo Neruda (just giving one poet out of thousands of examples) have been directly translated into multiple languages, one poem parts of which I will give examples below, translated directly into English:

YO NO TENGO SOLEDAD I am not alone

Es la noche desamparo The night is helplessness
. . .
Pero yo, la que te estrecha But I, the one who rocks you
. . .

Es el cielo desamparo The sky is helplessness
. . .

Es el mundo desamparo The world is helplessness

The night, the sky, the world are helplessness. What nonsense! :razz:

And the Beatles, specifically John Lennon, were well known for the odd phrase.


How dare you! "I am the walrus, coo coo cajoob" is one of the most poignant and meaningful lines ever written! High literature! :LOL:

I take your point, but I don't think the examples you've given are very comparable to what we're discussing here (not least because I think "helplessness" is a poor translation of desamparo). A phrase like "the night is abandonment" can be easily understood as a metaphor. The author is drawing attention to the inherent loneliness of night. This is apparent without me even needing to know the rest of the poem (and despite its title).

What we're discussing here, however, seems different. It is not merely an "odd phrase", but an oxymoron. Plurality in a term, the very concept of which explicitly excludes the possibility of plurality. A closer comparison, to my mind at least, might be found in the use of the term "literally" when a person actually means "figuratively"; "I literally died of embarrassment!" Because of the actual meaning of the term "literally", this abstract usage can sound very jarring.

In any case, I meant nothing I wrote as any form of literary criticism. I simply don't know how to translate "fate" in a way that will express the meaning OP intends, because, unlike the Spanish examples, it is not immediately clear to me what is intended. Perhaps, as I suggested above, it's actually another term or concept which is in question here, and not fate.


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PostPosted: Tue 15 Aug 2023 2:39 pm 
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Can we put all this behind us? I didn't want to cause a dispute here, but sort of did anyway. Ade just had some trouble understanding what I meant and probably giving them some context would've been better. To be honest, after really reading what I posted, I didn't even know what I meant :LOL: I'm actually glad that Ade gave his opinion actually. When I re-written the chunk of sentences, I made much more sense :LOL: The revised version actually conveys and pertains to the story I'm trying to create in this lament of mine. I was planning to delete that post so I wouldn't confuse the kind translators here, but then I realized I couldn't, which sort of sucks. I don't want anyone to argue over a grammatical mistake that I made. So, don't worry about it and I promise to be clear next time.


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PostPosted: Tue 15 Aug 2023 9:47 pm 
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Location: Corcaigh
Pearl wrote:
Can we put all this behind us? I didn't want to cause a dispute here, but sort of did anyway. Ade just had some trouble understanding what I meant and probably giving them some context would've been better. To be honest, after really reading what I posted, I didn't even know what I meant :LOL: I'm actually glad that Ade gave his opinion actually. When I re-written the chunk of sentences, I made much more sense :LOL: The revised version actually conveys and pertains to the story I'm trying to create in this lament of mine. I was planning to delete that post so I wouldn't confuse the kind translators here, but then I realized I couldn't, which sort of sucks. I don't want anyone to argue over a grammatical mistake that I made. So, don't worry about it and I promise to be clear next time.


Sorry for taking your topic a bit off the rails there. It's not uncommon for discussions on language forums to veer into the area of grammar and semantics, but it's generally out of genuine linguistic interest. I wouldn't really think any of us are arguing.

I think the reasoning for not letting people delete or edit their posts after a certain amount of time is that, on an earlier version of this forum, people would sometimes ask for a translation, then edit their post or delete it entirely. It could cause confusion when people tried to follow the thread later if some content was missing or had been changed, whereas, if posts are left available then anyone coming to the site in future, or searching on google, might be able to find the answers to their own questions without needing to open new threads themselves.

I was holding off tackling your most recent verse until I had more time. Unfortunately it doesn't look like I'll have much for the next couple of weeks, so here's a quick attempt:

Tá mórán cuimhní agam.
Cuimhní a bhfuil scanraithe orm dearmad a dhéanamh orthu.
Sileann deora ó mo shúile.
Tá mórán achainíocha agam.
Achainíocha nach mbainfear amach iad go deo.
Is mian liom tús nua fós.
An mbeidh aon rud fós ann, agus an t-am á chaitheamh?


I have many memories.
Memories that I'm afraid to forget.
Tears pour from my eyes.
I have many wishes.
Wishes that will never come true.
Yet, I desire a new start.
Will anything remain, as time passes?

You'll see I've slightly deviated from what you wrote in a few places, marked in red. This was mostly for ease of translation, and to try and keep it idiomatic. I'd advise waiting to see if anybody else can offer a better alternative, or can correct any mistakes I may have made here.


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PostPosted: Tue 15 Aug 2023 11:32 pm 
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I understand what you're saying, Ade. Thank you for taking some time to give me translation.


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PostPosted: Sat 19 Aug 2023 6:34 pm 
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Ade wrote:
Tá mórán cuimhní agam.
Cuimhní a bhfuil scanraithe orm dearmad a dhéanamh orthu.
Sileann deora ó mo shúile.
Tá mórán achainíocha agam.
Achainíocha nach mbainfear amach iad go deo.
Is mian liom tús nua fós.
An mbeidh aon rud fós ann, agus an t-am á chaitheamh?


I have many memories.
Memories that I'm afraid to forget.
Tears pour from my eyes.
I have many wishes.
Wishes that will never come true.
Yet, I desire a new start.
Will anything remain, as time passes?


Couldn't have done better meself. :D

I'm still intrigued by the previous version. :LOL: Still thinking of examples of "oxymoronic"(?) phrases in literature or popular culture: I feel Coke. Or as a Japanese friend of mine wrote and sang, " I've got a rainbow ON my way . . ." Hmm. :D


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug 2023 1:20 am 
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In other words, I agree with Ade’s translation. Any other comments or offers?


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug 2023 7:17 pm 
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Posts: 51
How do you pronounce these words?:
Cuimhní
Bhfuil
Dhéanamh
Orthu
Achainíocha
Mbainfear
Mbeidh
Chaitheamh


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PostPosted: Mon 21 Aug 2023 12:01 pm 
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Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 679
Oh my. My pronunciation, if even close, tends to wander around dialects. My explanations are even worse. :LOL: But I'll take a wild stab at it and we can wait for more input from others.

Pearl wrote:
How do you pronounce these words?:
Cuimhní kwiv NEE
Bhfuil vwil ("wil" might be acceptable in singing and fast speech.)
Dhéanamh YAY a niv In Conamara, I've heard YEE a niv.
Orthu OR ha In Conamara, OR ub.
Achainíocha a khai NEE a kha "kh" is like "rough h" with clearing of the throat.
Mbainfear man far Not sure of the accent or the "f"; it could be pronounced like "h": man har. I suspect "man FAR" around the Decies but elsewhere? Wait for others to correct and comment.
Mbeidh may
Chaitheamh KHA hiv


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