Hi all,

I've been doing some research and have found it difficult to find a good source of Munster Irish (specifically Corca Dhuibhne) that explains clearly how nouns with adjectives in the dative case are treated in amongst contemporary native Irish speakers. If somebody could provide corrections where applicable on the below sentences as per Corca Dhuibhne Irish I would be very grateful.

Bhí an cat ar an...
- mbord mhóir.
- leabhar mhóir.
- bhfuinneoig mhóir.
- lacha mhóir.

Thug sí bia don...
- fhear mhóir.
- éisteoir mhóir.
- bhó mhóir.
- mnaoi mhóir.

Bhí an madra sa...
- tseomra mhóir.
- rang mhóir.
- tséipéal mhóir
- leabharlann mhóir.

Well, your first port of call is Diarmuid Ó Sé's Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne.You say you've been doing research. I wonder what sources you've been using?

When you say "contemporary native Irish speakers", there is a good chance that younger speakers don't speak exactly like the respondents in GCD?

In any case, the existence of a dsf (feminine) has weakened a lot in Munster Irish. I think you might occasionally find a "mhóir" and a "bhig", but generally there won't be a dsf. I hope An Lon Dubh weighs in on this.

Your examples don't take account of the fact that slenderisation in the dative was only for feminine nouns. So "ar an mbórd mhór" and "ar an leabhar mhór" make sense, but "ar an bhfinneóig mhó(i)r". Finneóg has a slender f. Lacha traditionally had the dative lachain, so "ar an lachain mhó(i)r".

Don fhear mhór (fear is not feminine, and so has no dsf adjective). But hang on, isn't it eclipsis after "don" in Kerry? Don bhfear mhór?
Don éisteóir mhór
Don bhó mhó(i)r. This word traditionally had the dative bhoin, but it is likely to be rare now. With eclipisis it would be "don mbó mhó(i)r".
Don mnaoi mhó(i)r. But hang on, isn't the dative mnaoi obsolete? Are you sure it's not: "don mbean mhór"?

Seómra, rang and séipéal are all masculine, and so won't have a dsf adjective. Leabharlann is feminine, and once had a dative leabharlainn. Ignoring that as obsolete, it would be "sa leabharlann mhó(i)r".

In all of these examples, it is likely that the younger speakers have mhór in the dsf..... I think An Lon Dubh knows much more about this, and if he believes the dsf is vibrant in CD, then I would go with his view.

I found this in Nua-Chorpas: Is amhlaidh a deineadh cleamhnas don mbean bhocht leis an leathamadán úd . -- Maidhc Dainín Ó Sé, Chicago Driver

A speaker of Kerry Irish, he had "don mbean bhocht".

I also found this: Comhaos don mbó bhán , a dhiabhail . -- Pádraig Ó Cíobháin, An Gealas I Lár na Léithe

I suspect you haven't done any research at all on this.....

Thank you both for your input.

Admittedly my research was limited to grammar textbooks and other books on learning Irish e.g. Teach Yourself Irish - Myles Dillon (1961), Modern Irish - Michael O'Siadhail (1989), First Irish Grammar - Christian Brothers (1920). As well as the grammar guide on nualeargais.ie. My apologies if my claim of having done research was misleading. I will definitely check out Diarmuid Ó Sé's Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne. Now you mention it, prose and novels by Kerry authors would have been a wise choice of reference, thank you for the suggestion!

Thank you again and any further input on where I can do more research on in future is more than welcome.

You can order GCD from here: https://shop.dias.ie/product/gaeilge-chorca-dhuibhne/
It is 35 euros, and all in Standardised Irish, although the examples sentences are all in Kerry Irish. It is the "mother ship" as regarded Munster Irish - and the most comprehensive treatment of any Irish dialect. I believe an English-language edition (much needed) will come out one day, but it has been just about to come out for over a decade, and so it is not worth waiting for...

If you want to search for examples in Kerry authors, you could sign up (for free) at https://focloir.sketchengine.co.uk/run.cgi/index, where you can search the Nua-Chorpas.

The fundamental upshot is that slenderisation in the dative is only a feminine thing, and even then not often found nowadays. Peadar Ua Laoghaire occasionally had it, but not always, so even in his day it was on the way out...

Another good resource for Kerry Irish is Croidhe Cainnte C[h]iarraighe (click the Téacs an tSaothair link to download the pdf), a kind of Irish-Irish dictionary, explaining (in Irish) words and phrases used in Kerry, with lots of example sentences.

As for Nua-Chorpas na hÉireann (the corpus mentioned), I wrote a guide describing how to do some more complex searches in it: Using Nua-Chorpas na hÉireann.

An excellent site at celtic-languages.org . Is that your site or one you contribute to? I had a look round it, but I think vifax at maynooth is not working? Or I can't find the list of videos. But a lot of good information there.

It’s not my site but I do contribute to it sometimes. It’s not me who put the Vifax link on the resources page, but the link works fine for me.

OK thank you. I tried it again today and found that as I scrolled down a menu appeared at the top in Vifax. So I think it's working.

Silmeth, that is great. As far as I know, language learning pros recommend podcasts or vlogs where every word of the transcription is available. This is the approach taken by the Youtube channels Russian Progress and Russian with Anastasia. There are similar channels for other languages - that provide hundreds of podcasts all with full transcription.

Of course, you don't want to just read. But you can listen without the text, then read the text, then listen again, then listen again following along in the text, until you can understand it without any text. And you need to switch up the subject matter, so that you are not only learning one genre of the language.

Irish has so far lacked this. But with high quality audio, all transcribed, it becomes possible to study it in that way. Very valuable.

Edit: let me add: what is required is a full transcript in the original language, not a translation. Programmes with English subtitles are useless. What is needed is the full Irish transcription, which Vifax gives.