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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul 2022 5:54 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
Thank you for that. I can't be sure that An Bíobla Naofa shows Ó Fiannachta's local dialect. He was writing in Standardised Irish in the Bible?

You're quite right, I should have given an example from his dialectal works.

djwebb2021 wrote:
Looking at these, I think "his four houses" is "a cheithre tithe", and "her four houses" is also "a cheithre tithe". I think "their four houses" is "a gceithre tithe", but I don't think "ceithre" without lenition can be used ever, not even with a feminine antecedent. Do you agree?

I agree. The only occasions where "ceithre" is often used is in fixed phrases like "ceithre fichid" as you know. Ceithre bliana, ceithre cinn and ceithre páirc are other examples. Again this just shows the complexity of the Irish number system where the exceptions are often based on specific numeral + noun or numeral + initial consonant combinations. I remember Ó Sé talking about how egg and card counting operate slightly differently to typical counting.

I'm in the middle of a 40-odd page article about lenition in Muskerry Irish, but it will take some time to complete. Maybe I'll post some more questions over the weekend on awkward areas of lenition, of which there are many!!


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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Mon 18 Jul 2022 6:43 pm 
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A Lon Dubh: there are so many fiddly issues with numbers.
With ar+numeral, we have lenition: ar thrí (ar thrí cinn de chaoribh) and so:

ar cheithre X
ar chúig X
ar sheacht X
ar ocht X
ar naoi X
ar dheich X

The odd one out is: ar sé X.
Admittedly there are few relevant examples, but in 3 Kings 10:29 (Peadar Ua Laoghaire's translation) we read Agus tháinig carbat cheithre gcapall as an Éigipt ar sé chéad sicil airgid.

Do you have an explanation for this?
Maybe "ar shé" would sound quite like "uirthi"? Or maybe "ar se" (ar+6) is influenced by the phrase "ar sé" (said he)? [Although the latter is normally "ar seisean".]


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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Mon 18 Jul 2022 7:08 pm 
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You will sometimes see or hear "ar seacht". An example from Croí Cainte Ciarraí:
ar seacht scillinge ist ló

Similarly Maidhc Dainín Ó Sé's "Lili Frainc":
ar seacht neomant

So I think the case of "ar sé" and "ar seacht" is probably a case of dentals sandhi with lenition being blocked. I think "sé" is more likely to resist lenition than "seacht" for the reason you mention and also there is a tendency that the dentals rule is more likely to be kept to if a long vowel follows.

Also in terms of dentals, Amhlaoibh Ó Luínse has "ar deich" in Scéalaíocht Amhlaoibh Uí Luínse in "Muracha agus Maonas".

Ar deich is more common than ar dheich in Croí Cainte Ciarraí.

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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Mon 18 Jul 2022 7:49 pm 
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Thank you, that's interesting.
And in Seanachas Amhlaoibh p56, there is: Tugaim tínteán ar trí nú ceathair do throithe amach ón iarta. [Here the fact that "ar" governs a whole phrase may play a part.]

In Lughaidh mac Con by Ua Laoghaire, I've just found (p36): Curtar ar seacht miasaibh fichid iad anois [Ua Laoghaire frequently wrote fichid for fichead, but this is not the point of citing this here.]


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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Mon 18 Jul 2022 9:13 pm 
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Are these right?
Her two apples: a dhá húll.
Their two apples: a dhá n-úll

I can't find direct attestation of h and n use after a dhá.


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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Tue 19 Jul 2022 9:26 am 
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From the book "Sceulta Mhicil Uí Mhuirgheasa ón Rinn" on p.21:

"a dhá h-uillin leagtha ar a bharra"

From Jimín Máire Thaidhg, p.34 of the 1st Edition:

"ceanglaimís a dhá n-eirball!"

Maidhc Dainín never seems to have it. I'll have a look through more of my folklore collections to see if I can find other examples.

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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Tue 19 Jul 2022 10:38 am 
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Good finds, Darran!


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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Tue 19 Jul 2022 4:55 pm 
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Still pouring through texts, but note the following from Scéalta agus Seanchas Phádraig Uí Ghrífín p.61:

D'imíodar amach sa choill agus cailleadh ann iad agus d'imíodar ina dhá cholúr ghléigeal an spéir in airde mar fuaireadar bás naofa

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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Tue 19 Jul 2022 5:16 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
Still pouring through texts, but note the following from Scéalta agus Seanchas Phádraig Uí Ghrífín:

D'imíodar amach sa choill agus cailleadh ann iad agus d'imíodar ina dhá cholúr ghléigeal an spéir in airde mar fuaireadar bás naofa


That's interesting, particularly as it is ghléigeal and not ghléigeala.


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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Tue 19 Jul 2022 7:43 pm 
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Out of interest, here's an example of possessive + dhá following mutation of the possessive from Cois Fharraige. Seanchas Jimmí Chearra Chois Fharraige, p.21:

Bhí chuile dhuine dhá raibh istigh ar a dhá nglúin...

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