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 Post subject: in three small huts
PostPosted: Sun 10 Jul 2022 9:07 pm 
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We find i dhá mbothán bheaga with the dual. The i eclipses the noun, but the dual number and the adjective are lenited. What about with other numerals?

I dtrí mbothánaibh beaga? I dtrí mbothán beaga?


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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Mon 11 Jul 2022 12:01 pm 
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I would think this is restricted to the dual (but have no data on this, just throwing my two cents).

Compare how dhá is often treated differently after the possessive pronouns (at least in Munster and the standard) where it stays lenited while the mutations jump over it, like a dhá bróig ‘her two shoes’, ár dhá mbó / mboin ‘our two cows’, etc. This is a Middle Irish innovation specific to dhá (in Old Irish the numeral was mutated, and the noun was always lenited after dá, dí and eclipsed after dib, but I’ve seen modern examples like ár ndá bhó /ɛr Nɛː wɔː/ ‘our two cows’ from Ros Goill too – so dialects still vary here).

So my thinking would be that something similar specific to dhá could happen with i (and other prepositions?). Perhaps on the analogy with the usage with possessive pronouns.


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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Mon 11 Jul 2022 3:43 pm 
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silmeth wrote:
I would think this is restricted to the dual (but have no data on this, just throwing my two cents).

Compare how dhá is often treated differently after the possessive pronouns (at least in Munster and the standard) where it stays lenited while the mutations jump over it, like a dhá bróig ‘her two shoes’, ár dhá mbó / mboin ‘our two cows’, etc. This is a Middle Irish innovation specific to dhá (in Old Irish the numeral was mutated, and the noun was always lenited after dá, dí and eclipsed after dib, but I’ve seen modern examples like ár ndá bhó /ɛr Nɛː wɔː/ ‘our two cows’ from Ros Goill too – so dialects still vary here).

So my thinking would be that something similar specific to dhá could happen with i (and other prepositions?). Perhaps on the analogy with the usage with possessive pronouns.

Thank you. And I suspect you're right that dhá is an exception. Even with dhá there may be dialectal variation. In my file on lenition, I have written this:

Among Ua Laoghaire’s letters to Shán Ó Cuív, there is this explanation, in answer to queries on Sliabh na mBan bhFionn (where we read sháidh sí a dhá láimh san olann on p21), on the usage of possessives with numerals:
Quote:
A dhá láimh is the true Irish. “His two eyes” = a dhá shúil. “Her two eyes” = a dhá súil. “His two fists” = a dhá dhorn. “Her two fists” = a dhá dorn. “His two feet” = a dhá chois. “Her two feet” = a dhá cois. Long ago, 70 years ago, I heard an old Irish song, about a mother caressing her child. Here is one line of it:—

Agus í dhá luascadh ’dir a dhá cí = And she was swaying him between her two breasts. Is it not too bad that people will not accept the truth from me! Still I have never invented anything!


It seemed learners of Irish a century ago struggled to accept Ua Laoghaire’s presentation of Irish grammar (on this and on numerous other points). He insisted that in the third person, the numeral dhá remains unchanged, and lenition is transferred to the noun. Let’s compare a sentence from Ua Laoghaire’s Bible translation with a usage in Ó Loingsigh’s oral stories:

Quote:
Cuireadh sí uaithi a striapachas óna haghaidh, agus a hadhaltranas ó idir a dhá cí. [Hosea 2:2]
A dá chí chruinne ar a clí sneachtaig, is isí chuir na mílthe chun báis. [Scéalaíocht Amhlaoibh, 315]


It seems that O’Nolan wrestled with this contradiction in his New Era Grammar (p118):

Quote:
When is preceded by the G. pron. a, that pron. may aspirate or eclipse the init. d- according to circumstances; in which case will asp. the following consonant:—Bhí na gloiní na ndá dhorn acu—they had the glasses in their two fists. Or the d- of may be aspirated in all cases, and then the pron. produces its natural effect on the n.—a dhá dorn—her two fists; a dhá dhorn—his two fists; a dhá ndorn—their two fists ... this seems to be the Conn, and W. Kerry usage.


As Dinneen in his dictionary (under ) also states that the modern usage is as Ua Laoghaire stated it to be, it may be that some oral folklore retains the occasional phrase that reflects an older pattern. Examples of all the possible combinations are lacking. Use with ár and úr is particularly hard to find; bhí na Rómhánaigh go léir ’n-a dhá mbuidhin illustrates the third person plural. Therefore, if we use tigh to illustrate the matter, then the correct forms are: mo dhá thigh, do dhá thigh, a dhá thigh (masculine), a dhá tigh, (feminine), ár dhá dtigh, úr dhá dtigh, a dhá dtigh. Examples of the other permutations in Muskerry literature are lacking, but we could expect a dhá húll (“her two apples”) and a dhá n-úll (“their two apples”) where the noun began with a vowel.


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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Mon 11 Jul 2022 4:01 pm 
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To throw some more historical perspective, here’s what McKenna says about it in classical Gaelic, in his edition of Bardic Syntactical Tracts:

Bardic Syntactical Tracts, pp. 152–153, notes on ms. page 213, lines 27–8 wrote:
On the construction of poss. adj. & (“two”).

The exx. here given (mo dhá fhear, do dhá fhear, bhar ndá fhear) are not numerous enough to determine the Bardic usage in all cases.

In O.I. the poss. adj. affected the (di, &c.) and this was followed by a lenited dual form.

A different construction is found in Mid. I. and has become general in the spoken language, viz. the poss. affects the initial of the noun and ignores the dhá which is always lenited. Thus:

[sin the book the following is a nice table]
A = O. I.; B = modern I

Sg. 1 (A) mo dhá fhear; (B) mo dhá fhear
Sg. 2 (A) do dhá fhear; (B) do dhá fhear
Sg. 3 (A) masc. a dhá fhear; (B) a dhá fhear
Sg. 3 (A) fem. a dá fhear; (B) a dhá fear
Pl. 1 (A) ar ndá fhear; (B) ar dhá bhfear
Pl. 2 (A) bhar ndá fhear; (B) bhar dhá bhfear
Pl. 3 (A) a ndá fhear; (B) a dhá bhfear

The use in 1 and 2 sg. and in masc. 3 sg. is the same in both schemes and is frequently exemplified in the poems.

In 3 sg. fem., as far as can be judged from the few available exx. (DiD 91 49, 99 32, PB 1 4, 2 20), a mixed type seems possible, viz. a dá fear; the MSS, however, vary, and probably the type a dhá fear was the usual one followed.

In Pl. 1 the type ar dhá bhfear was probably the usual one, cf. DiD 90 24.

Of Pl. 2 the Text gives the ex. bhar ndá fhear, ie. type A. No ex. of it has been found by me in the poems. The Text, however, gives another type viz. a dhá bhar bhfear cf. 226 10. This may have arisen from a dhá having become stereotyped and then being followed by the poss. adj. It seems parallel to the instances quoted in Eriu xi 147 for the 1 and 2 sg. and 1 pl., viz. a dam shúil, a dad láim, a dar nécsi.

Of the 3 pl. the only two exx. which are at hand seem to show a mixture of types A and B, DiD 57 22, AiD 100 16 (n-a ndá gcuid). These may be parallel to the exx. quoted for 1 and 2 sg. in Eriu, l.c., mo dam ingen, do dat láim, in which the poss. adj. is used twice over.


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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Mon 11 Jul 2022 4:04 pm 
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That's great. Is there anything in the Bardic tracts about usage with other numbers?


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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Mon 11 Jul 2022 8:44 pm 
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The lenited form dhá has become petrified and is preferred in all circumstances (except an dá/aon dá/chéad dá). So as well i dhá.
In Connacht, there is lenition of the noun: i dhá pholl. (M. Ó Cadhain).
Tomás Ó Criomhthain used i dhá bpoll

Standard Irish would use "in dhá", in dhá pholl.

Other numbers are normally eclipsed:
i dtrí, i gceithre, i gcúig.

There is no need of forwarded eclipsis.
A singular noun is lenited: i dtrí pholl,
a plural noun is unchanged: i dtrí cinn.


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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul 2022 12:40 am 
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Labhrás wrote:
The lenited form dhá has become petrified and is preferred in all circumstances (except an dá/aon dá/chéad dá). So as well i dhá.
In Connacht, there is lenition of the noun: i dhá pholl. (M. Ó Cadhain).
Tomás Ó Criomhthain used i dhá bpoll

Standard Irish would use "in dhá", in dhá pholl.

Other numbers are normally eclipsed:
i dtrí, i gceithre, i gcúig.

There is no need of forwarded eclipsis.
A singular noun is lenited: i dtrí pholl,
a plural noun is unchanged: i dtrí cinn.


Thank you. That makes sense. The quote from Ó Criomhthain is useful.
So: i dtrí bothánaibh beaga.


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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul 2022 11:24 am 
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Like anything to do with the numerals this is both complex and depends on individual words. Examples taken from Croí Cainte Ciarraí except where noted.

The general tendency is that common words beginning with a vowel get a h-prefix:
i gceithre háit
i sé huaire
i gceithre hairde (Nuadha agus Breoghan ar Neamh, Maidhc Dainín Ó Sé)

But not less common words:
i dtrí adhbharaibh

Words beginning with a consonant show free variation:
i gcúig tighthe
i gcúig thighthe

But the general tendency for consonants is to follow the typical mutation following that number, i.e. for 3-6 no lenition for plurals and lenition for singulars, 7-10 eclipses. My general experience is that this tends to follow the typical rules a speaker has for the numerals in general, i.e. a speaker who eclipses after 7-10 will do so here, a speaker who does not mutate words following numerals will not do so here.

Even in the case of dá there is free variation:

i dhá uair
i ndá uair

i dhá mhí
i dhá gceann
i ndá chuid

I think it's useful to keep in mind the massive variation in numeral mutations. Observe extracts from the following poem from Bab Feiritéar:
cheithre punann
cheithre ndornán
cheithre mbirt
cheithre n-iothlann
cheithre pharóiste
cheithre chontae

My impression is that the mutations of nouns following possessive + dhá still follow the possessive. Only a minority of speakers say things like "a ndá chuid", although for example Pádraig Ó Fiannachta was amongst them, so you'll see it in An Bíobla Naomhtha.

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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul 2022 4:09 pm 
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Thank you for that. I can't be sure that An Bíobla Naofa shows Ó Fiannachta's local dialect. He was writing in Standardised Irish in the Bible?

My notes show the following:
    agus bhí abha ag ruith amach a’ lár na h‑áite aoíbhnis sin, ag leathadh uisge ar an bparathis, agus í ranntha as san n-a cheithre ceannaibh (Genesis 2:10)
    na sagairt dá roinnt ’na gceithre cuardaibh fichid; a chúig mhaca déag le n-a chois (2 Samuel 19:17)
    do dheighil sé an tír ’n-a chúig cúigíbh (Sgéalaidheacht na Macabéach, Vol 2, 77)
Abha (feminine), 'na cheithre ceannaibh
Sagairt (mpl), 'na gceithre cuardaibh fichid
Tír (feminine) na chúig cúigíbh

Looking at these, I think "his four houses" is "a cheithre tithe", and "her four houses" is also "a cheithre tithe". I think "their four houses" is "a gceithre tithe", but I don't think "ceithre" without lenition can be used ever, not even with a feminine antecedent. Do you agree?


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 Post subject: Re: in three small huts
PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul 2022 5:43 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
Thank you for that. I can't be sure that An Bíobla Naofa shows Ó Fiannachta's local dialect. He was writing in Standardised Irish in the Bible?

You're quite right, I should have given an example from his dialectal works.

djwebb2021 wrote:
Looking at these, I think "his four houses" is "a cheithre tithe", and "her four houses" is also "a cheithre tithe". I think "their four houses" is "a gceithre tithe", but I don't think "ceithre" without lenition can be used ever, not even with a feminine antecedent. Do you agree?

I agree. The only occasions where "ceithre" is often used is in fixed phrases like "ceithre fichid" as you know. Ceithre bliana, ceithre cinn and ceithre páirc are other examples. Again this just shows the complexity of the Irish number system where the exceptions are often based on specific numeral + noun or numeral + initial consonant combinations. I remember Ó Sé talking about how egg and card counting operate slightly differently to typical counting.

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