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PostPosted: Fri 01 Jul 2022 5:41 pm 
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silmeth wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
You gave the OP a form taught to be wrong in the pre-standardised schools and grammar books of the century before the introduction of the Caighdeán Oifigiúíl.


Do you have any proof that it indeed was taught to be wrong?

So far you’ve shown that late 19th c. and early 20th c. grammar books used that spelling, nothing more. I’ve shown that you could find both in the most authoritative dictionary of the time, and it was also shown to you that many actual published texts used a different convention.

Also, those students would often encounter Irish written in seanachló in graveyards. And when you look at many Gaeltacht grave stones from late 19th and early 20th century, you’ll again often see the h-prothesis without a hyphen, like on this grave from Corca Dhuibhne:

Image

Tomás Ruiséal bocht, his grave is not authentic.




It seems to me the grammars wrote h- in order to be more explicit about the mutations, thus making it a bit easier to parse for learners. But that does not mean that this was really deemed a better convention by educated native speakers, or that any consensus about it really existed. And from the variation in Dinneen’s dictionary (or the variation between ḃfuil and ḃ-fuil in Christian Brothers’ grammar) it seems to me that most of them did not care and considered both to be correct. All the literate ones were probably used to reading all those variants anyway.


Well, I have shown that O'Donovan speaking of similar uses of hyphens and apostrophes showed that grammarians recommended the usage used by Peadar Ua Laoghaire. I know you're one of those people who likes to go round and round in circles. Peadar Ua Laoghaire's usage in all of his manuscripts and nearly all of his books was to use the hyphen, although he didn't personally typeset his books, and could stop typesetters from occasionally deviating. The Christian Brother's grammar showed what grammarians at the time regarded as correct Irish - it was not just "putting in a hyphen not to confuse learners", but showing what correct usage was. Dinneen's usage in his only novel was clear - the same as what was recommended by O'Donovan. Now I can't claim that dictionaries can stop all writers of English from writing cozy instead of cosy -- but dictionaries do illustrate the best usage. There were some writers of Irish who deviated from the best usage, as is the case in all languages. "na hÉireann" is wrong, as there is no Irish word "hÉireann".


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PostPosted: Fri 01 Jul 2022 5:45 pm 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
On top of that, I just went and checked out many other pre-Caighdeán works by native speakers. Tomás Ó Máille and his brother both used it without the hyphen, as did Ó Cadhain and Pádraig Óg Ó Conaire. Seosamh Mac Grianna didn't use the hyphen, and, since apparently on stuff written in Munster is 'authentic', neither did An Seabhac, himself a very well-educated native speaker from Kerry.

And, going to other famous authors of the type, An Craoibhín Aoibhinn also didn't use the hyphen.


First of all, An Seabhac was *not* a native speaker of Irish. I have read a couple of chapters of his Beatha Wolfe Tone, a translation he did. The spelling is impeccable in that book. But he appears not to know how to use "féin" and "-sa" and regards them as interchangeable. I think he lived near Irish-speaking people, but emphatically was a learner of the language.

If any of the people you mentioned didn't spell h- with a hyphen, then they deviated from O'Donovan's grammar, the Christian Brothers' grammar, the usage of Dinneen and Ua Laoghaire. I've got to let you into a secret: some people write "yoghurt" with an h. A totally incorrect spelling, which has been rolled out by a downmarket supermarket, Tesco.

I have to say, and it is a shame, that the Irish language "movement" attracts the most unpleasant people in Ireland. I find nearly all Irish people pleasant, welcoming etc - APART FROM the Irish-language movement people. If you see how this forum treated Dave Smith! Thankfully, the L2 Gaeilgeóirí are NOT representative of the Irish nation. This very thread is shameful.


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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul 2022 3:02 am 
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I really think the answer to all this is quite simple.

Is it OK to use Gaelic Script to write in Modern Irish? If it is, then my post was OK.
David's post about using the hyphen is good as it reflects older usage.

Why can't either be OK? Where is the authority that says you can only use Gaelic Script in the older language?


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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul 2022 8:53 am 
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The thing is, there is a lot of older usage, in all kinds of published texts, not using the hyphen. So it’s entirely authentic to write in the old orthography, using archaizing language, in Gaelic Script without the hyphen too.

(Not that any such distinction matters with regards to your answer in the thread go hÉirinn works well for any period of (early) Modern Irish)


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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul 2022 12:40 pm 
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silmeth wrote:
The thing is, there is a lot of older usage, in all kinds of published texts, not using the hyphen. So it’s entirely authentic to write in the old orthography, using archaizing language, in Gaelic Script without the hyphen too.

(Not that any such distinction matters with regards to your answer in the thread go hÉirinn works well for any period of (early) Modern Irish)


It is unlikely that grammarians such as O'Donovan regarded that as the best usage. I note you have come on this forum with the sole intention of restarting an argument. Where is your useful post on Irish helping people who have posted on this forum? There are plenty of threads you can answer. Maybe you have an opinion on the Irish for "to define is to limit"?


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