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PostPosted: Thu 19 Aug 2021 12:47 pm 
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There are some other minor issues with the book too:

  • it doesn’t mention lenition of s after sa – it teaches only the non-lenited Kerry form sa seomra, sa samhradh, sa séipéal but not sa tseomra, sa tsamhradh, sa tséipéal – although sa tseomra does appear in Téacsanna breise after the lessons at the end¹ – interestingly it mentions possibility of either lenition or eclipsis after don in lesson 13,
  • it uses the weird standard written form do mo, do do etc. in the progressive construction (but instructs to read them as /əm, əd/), but doesn’t mention delenition of labials after /əm/ (like in am’ bualadh, or lem báthair for le mo mháthair),
  • it consistently writes Gaeilge (which wouldn’t be that bad, if that form changed between nom. and gen., but it doesn’t in writing – so there’s a change in pronunciation not reflected in writing, and even though the book uses this word in genitive contexts, I don’t think it ever mentions that genitive is pronounced differently, but the recording to lesson 27 does use genitive),
  • it doesn’t mention many rarer (or not that rare!) synthetic verbal forms (like the plural -id ending in táid),
  • it finally never tells you which exact dialect it focuses on – it just broadly states it’s teaching dialekt munsterski (the Munster dialect) and that it’s important it’s caint na ndaoine «mowa ludu», żywy język (‘«speech of the people», living language’).

But then, it also doesn’t attempt to teach you all the dialectal quirks. It’s an introductory course for beginners, and it’s still pretty comprehensive considering its target audience.

¹ there is a snippet from Ua Laoghaire’s Mo Scéal Féin there too, but weirdly edited to the textbook’s form, with do’n fhear changed to don bhfear, etc. :(


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PostPosted: Thu 19 Aug 2021 12:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
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silmeth wrote:
There are some other minor issues with the book too:

  • it doesn’t mention lenition of s after sa – it teaches only the non-lenited Kerry form sa seomra, sa samhradh, sa séipéal but not sa tseomra, sa tsamhradh, sa tséipéal – although sa tseomra does appear in Téacsanna breise after the lessons at the end¹ – interestingly it mentions possibility of either lenition or eclipsis after don in lesson 13,
  • it uses the weird standard written form do mo, do do etc. in the progressive construction (but instructs to read them as /əm, əd/), but doesn’t mention delenition of labials after /əm/ (like in am’ bualadh, or lem báthair for le mo mháthair),
  • it consistently writes Gaeilge (which wouldn’t be that bad, if that form changed between nom. and gen., but it doesn’t in writing – so there’s a change in pronunciation not reflected in writing, and even though the book uses this word in genitive contexts, I don’t think it ever mentions that genitive is pronounced differently, but the recording to lesson 27 does use genitive),
  • it doesn’t mention many rarer (or not that rare!) synthetic verbal forms (like the plural -id ending in táid),
  • it finally never tells you which exact dialect it focuses on – it just broadly states it’s teaching dialekt munsterski (the Munster dialect) and that it’s important it’s caint na ndaoine «mowa ludu», żywy język (‘«speech of the people», living language’).

But then, it also doesn’t attempt to teach you all the dialectal quirks. It’s an introductory course for beginners, and it’s still pretty comprehensive considering its target audience.

¹ there is a snippet from Ua Laoghaire’s Mo Scéal Féin there too, but weirdly edited to the textbook’s form, with do’n fhear changed to don bhfear, etc. :(



Yes, it is a very good book. Doyle and Gussman thought about the order in which things would be presented, and didn't leave anything out, I don't think. I learnt Irish from this book, in fact. My copy of the book is falling apart. Yes, the altering of Ua Laoghaire's Irish was a quibble I had - you just can't do this. Should I teach Shakespeare translated into some other form of English? You can't do that. But it is churlish not to admit that, apart from being in Polish only, this is very near to being a perfect textbook.


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PostPosted: Thu 19 Aug 2021 12:56 pm 
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Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 144
I agree that writing do do and saying ad is ridiculous.
What I've agreed to do in any books I publish (and I plan to publish) is to write:

'om bualadh
'od bhualadh
á bhualadh
á bualadh
ár mbualadh
úr mbualadh
á mbualadh


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PostPosted: Thu 19 Aug 2021 1:41 pm 
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Joined: Fri 08 Jan 2016 11:37 pm
Posts: 180
Any strong reason for choosing ’om, ’od over am, ad?


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PostPosted: Thu 19 Aug 2021 3:04 pm 
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Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 144
silmeth wrote:
Any strong reason for choosing ’om, ’od over am, ad?


I feel that both ag and do were involved in older Irish, and so am, ad etc are valid. However, I'm taking advice from people with greater knowledge of Cork Irish, and they have told me that Ua Laoghaire's view on the distinction between 'ghá dhéanamh and dá dhéanamh was his own quirky view (he had a few of those) and that do was the original. As I haven't studied Irish before Ua Laoghaire, I can't insist on my point of view. But as long as the final texts can be read out in Cork Irish, the spelling can work. I've redone Mo Sgéal Féin for the umpteenth time and am happy with the text and could publish it now. But I've read there is a manuscript of this in the National Library in Ireland, and I want to go and consult that first, in case Norma Borthwick made unauthorised amendments in the 1915 text. But I don't want to go to Ireland and find myself under a 14 day quarantine on the way back because panicky Boris has suddenly imposed more restrictions. But the text is as far as I know finalised.


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PostPosted: Thu 19 Aug 2021 5:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu 15 Aug 2013 10:12 pm
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silmeth wrote:
Wow, this is great. I had no idea this was a thing! Was it ever available commercially? I am fairly sure they were never sold with the book, I was convinced for over a decade that no recordings for the book have ever existed.


Silmeth, you seem to have sent me a private message:

Quote:
You have received a new private message from "silmeth" to your account on
"ILF - Irish Language Forum" with the following subject:

An Ghaeilge


Unfortunately, I have no access to my inbox on this forum, it says: "You are not authorised to read private messages." So If you want to contact me, please use my email instead: qrizz7@gmail.com


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PostPosted: Thu 19 Aug 2021 7:48 pm 
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Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm
Posts: 2965
Klisz -

To deter spammers people have to have ten posts before they can send and receive PMs.
Check your inbox, you should be able to read it now. If not I'll have to get Breandán on it :D


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PostPosted: Thu 19 Aug 2021 10:18 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
Klisz -

To deter spammers people have to have ten posts before they can send and receive PMs.
Check your inbox, you should be able to read it now. If not I'll have to get Breandán on it :D


It works now :clap: . Thanks a lot, Bríd :GRMA:


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PostPosted: Mon 23 Aug 2021 5:14 am 
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Posts: 445
silmeth wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
There is a Polish-language book on Kerry Irish by Grossman and Doyle, which is out of print, I believe, but you might find a copy somewhere.

Small nitpick: the author’s name is Edmund Gussmann ;-). The book is called An Ghaeilge (podręcznik języka irlandzkiego) (but even though the title is spelt in the standard, it does teach Kerry-ish Munster variety), but unfortunately it’s been out of print and out of stock for years.

(there are some bootleg copies flying around in the web and besides that I made a PDF with just the reading texts and glossaries translated to English from the book, which I hope is small enough part of the whole thing that the remaining living author and the publisher don’t mind me sharing online…)


Abebooks has a copy:

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Search ... aeilge&kn=


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PostPosted: Mon 23 Aug 2021 5:32 am 
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Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 445
The pdf also has "Téacs" for every chapter whereas it should read "Ceacht", according to Doyle's audio. There are a few other places that don't match up as well.


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