It is currently Tue 21 Sep 2021 8:45 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug 2021 3:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat 31 Jul 2021 8:03 pm
Posts: 17
Are the prepositions 'do' and 'le' equally valid in the following phrases, where you have an indefinite noun modifying a definite noun?

⦁ A Cork footballer (i.e. someone on the Cork football team): Peileadóir do Chorcaigh; Peileadóir le Corcaigh

⦁ A co-founder of the club: Cómhbhunaitheoir don chumann; Cómhbhunaitheoir leis an gcumann

⦁ A friend of Seán: Cara do Sheán; Cara le Seán


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug 2021 3:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat 31 Jul 2021 8:03 pm
Posts: 17
*I should have said: "where you have an definite noun modifying an indefinite noun".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 03 Aug 2021 4:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 144
Caoilte wrote:
Are the prepositions 'do' and 'le' equally valid in the following phrases, where you have an indefinite noun modifying a definite noun?

⦁ A Cork footballer (i.e. someone on the Cork football team): Peileadóir do Chorcaigh; Peileadóir le Corcaigh

⦁ A co-founder of the club: Cómhbhunaitheoir don chumann; Cómhbhunaitheoir leis an gcumann

⦁ A friend of Seán: Cara do Sheán; Cara le Seán

Those prepositions are definitely equivalent in driotháir do and driotháir leis.
I'd be interested in wider views on the ones above, because I think cómhbhunaitheóir don chumann makes more sense than leis an gcumann, because do also has its own meaning, "to/for", and le means "with", and to/for makes more sense in this particular example. But I'm open to persuasion by other forum members.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 04 Aug 2021 3:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat 31 Jul 2021 8:03 pm
Posts: 17
Thanks djwebb.

Below is the format of text that I'll probably go with. (Note: names/orgs have been changed for anonymity's sake.) The only thing that remains to be settled are the three prepositions (in blue).

Seosamh Ó Murchú
Peileadóir le Mala agus Corcaigh
Cómhbhunaitheoir do Bhord Peile Dhúiche Ealla (1965) agus an Chéad Uachtarán air (1965-1975)


I'm just wondering if it comes across as inconsistent to be using three different prepositions above when 'le' could possibly be used in all three cases.

I'm comfortable with 'peileadóir le <ainm fhoirne>' since I've seen this style on websites that have good quality Irish (using a google search).

For the third preposition, Labhrás has indicated that 'leis' and 'air' would both be acceptable.

Of possible significance is that, in the first two cases, the nouns being modified/qualified are indefinite (Peileadóir, Cómhbhunaitheoir) but in the third case, it's definite (an Chéad Uachtarán).

Note also, in the second and third cases, the modifying noun phrase is the same (Bord Peile Dhúiche Ealla). So I'm not sure if it would seem especially inconsistent to use two different prepositions for these two cases.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 04 Aug 2021 4:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 144
Caoilte wrote:
Thanks djwebb.

Below is the format of text that I'll probably go with. (Note: names/orgs have been changed for anonymity's sake.) The only thing that remains to be settled are the three prepositions (in blue).

Seosamh Ó Murchú
Peileadóir le Mala agus Corcaigh
Cómhbhunaitheoir do Bhord Peile Dhúiche Ealla (1965) agus an Chéad Uachtarán air (1965-1975)


I'm just wondering if it comes across as inconsistent to be using three different prepositions above when 'le' could possibly be used in all three cases.

I'm comfortable with 'peileadóir le <ainm fhoirne>' since I've seen this style on websites that have good quality Irish (using a google search).

For the third preposition, Labhrás has indicated that 'leis' and 'air' would both be acceptable.

Of possible significance is that, in the first two cases, the nouns being modified/qualified are indefinite (Peileadóir, Cómhbhunaitheoir) but in the third case, it's definite (an Chéad Uachtarán).

Note also, in the second and third cases, the modifying noun phrase is the same (Bord Peile Dhúiche Ealla). So I'm not sure if it would seem especially inconsistent to use two different prepositions for these two cases.


I think that is fine as you have, apart from the fact that in the supposed "standard" it is comhbhunaitheoir, with no síneadh fada. See https://www.focloir.ie/en/dictionary/ei/co-#co-__2

I think you could wait and see if Labhrás and Bríd like your translation.

There is nothing wrong with the prepositions above. Doing a Google search, "uachtarán ar" is the normal phrase, and so I don't think you should be changing the prepositions from what you have.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 04 Aug 2021 11:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri 09 Sep 2011 2:06 pm
Posts: 647
"Comhbhunaitheoir do Bhord...": I haven't come across 'do' used in this way outwith relationships involving family, friends, colleagues etc., and using it with a word like 'comhbhunaitheoir' seems strange to me. I haven't read very much in Irish, though, and am happy to be shown otherwise. I'd use 'de chuid' instead, which you could also use with 'peileadóir', although 'le' of course is fine. I don't really know whether repetition of the preposition is necessary here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 05 Aug 2021 1:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 144
Errigal wrote:
"Comhbhunaitheoir do Bhord...": I haven't come across 'do' used in this way outwith relationships involving family, friends, colleagues etc., and using it with a word like 'comhbhunaitheoir' seems strange to me. I haven't read very much in Irish, though, and am happy to be shown otherwise. I'd use 'de chuid' instead, which you could also use with 'peileadóir', although 'le' of course is fine. I don't really know whether repetition of the preposition is necessary here.


Errigal, I see your point and you may be right, but I looked at the 600,000-word corpus of Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh's Irish and couldn't find a single instance of "de chuid" (or do chuid, as it would be spelt in the folklore taken down from him). A word search of 1.5m words of the Irish of Peadar Ua Laoghaire yields no examples It's in FGB, but it's used way, way, way more frequently by learners and translators, because they are translating word for word from English and not speaking natural Irish.

What about: duine de lucht bunaithe (you can find a lot of Google hits in reputable sources for that phrase)

Duine de lucht bunaithe Bhord Peile Dhúiche Ealla (1965) agus an Chéad Uachtarán air (1965-1975)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 06 Aug 2021 2:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat 31 Jul 2021 8:03 pm
Posts: 17
djwebb, Errigal, thanks for yeer feedback.

Errigal wrote:
"Comhbhunaitheoir do Bhord...": I haven't come across 'do' used in this way outwith relationships involving family, friends, colleagues etc., and using it with a word like 'comhbhunaitheoir' seems strange to me.


Labhrás did say (in a previous thread) that 'a house of the teacher' translates to 'teach don mhúinteoir'. (Although, in this specific case, the relationship between the two nouns is one of ownership.)

It seems to me that expressing a relationship betwen two nouns in English overwhelmingly involves either the genitive case (e.g. the man's cap) or the use of the preposition 'of' (e.g. a man of action). However Irish seems not to be so simple (at least from the perspective of an English speaker). From having looked up the entry for 'of' in the English-Irish dictionaries at both teanglann.ie and focloir.ie, I identified 5 main ways to express a relationship between two nouns in Irish. Below is a very random (haphazard) sample of each.

Genitive: cupán tae; Uachtarán na hÉireann; dath an pháipéir bhalla; eagla Dé

le: deirfiúr le Seán; dochtúir le leigheas (=dochtúir leighis)

de: píosa de cháca; an ceann is mó de na hoileáin; bosca de chártaí Nollag (=bosca cártaí Nollag);
grianghraf den droichead; pictiúr de long; ardú de dhá euro (=ardú dhá euro); caisleán de theach;
an t-ochtú lá fichead de Mhárta (=an t-ochtú lá is fiche Márta); an chéad lá den mhí;
teocht de 120 céim (=teocht 120 céim Celsius) (a temperature of 120 deg Celsius)

de chuid: deirfiúr de chuid Sheáin (=deirfiúr le Seán); seanchara de mo chuid (seanchara liom);
cara de chuid m'athar (=cara le m'athair); an nós seo dá cuid (this habit of hers)

ar [very few examples]: fear ar d'ainm (=fear de d'ainm); bhí drochcheann amháin ar an gcéad (=sa chéad)
- one of the hundred was bad; Foras feasa ar Éirinn

From these two English-Irish dictionaries, the nearest I found to 'do' being used to express a relationship between two nouns is the use of the prepositional pronoun forms of 'do' e.g. gaol dom (a relation of mine); cad is ainm duit? (what's your name? [or maybe more literally: what's a name of you?, as if a person might have more than one name/way of being addressed!]). You also see 'le' being used in this way e.g. cara liom.

In Ó Dónaill's Irish-English dictionary, under the entry for 'do', there was no evidence of 'do' being used to relate two nouns.

However finally, in Dineen's Irish-English dictionary, I did find the following examples under the entry 'do': námhaid do Dhia (an enemy of God); mac do Sheán. Although in these examples, the relationship is one between two individuals, which fits with what Errigal was saying.

---

djwebb2021 wrote:
What about: duine de lucht bunaithe (you can find a lot of Google hits in reputable sources for that phrase)

Duine de lucht bunaithe Bhord Peile Dhúiche Ealla (1965) agus an Chéad Uachtarán air (1965-1975)


Considering the uncertainty with the use of 'do', I might go with the above, although it seems to be more of a mouthful. It's also similar to the following that I had originally been considering: Duine de Bhunaitheoirí Bhord Peile Dhúiche Ealla.

Although if 'le' were acceptable, the following would be neater I think: Comhbhunaitheoir le Bord Peile Dhúiche Ealla. And with 'Peileadóir le Corcaigh' being correct, you'd think this would be too.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri 06 Aug 2021 2:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 144
Caoilte, there are instances of bunaitheoir do and comhbhunaitheoir do in apparently well-produced (albeit Standardised) Irish. See for example https://www.gtc.ie/ga/board-of-directors/?locale=en. If you put "bunaitheoir do" and "comhbhunaitheoir do" in inverted commas in Google, you will find other examples.

I'm reluctant to lead someone up the garden path, and so I think it would be better if other people weighed in on this, but this forum does not have many regular posters. You could wait a day or two and see.

Cad is ainm duit? - this doesn't mean "what is one of your names?" It means "what is your name?" Ainm appears at first glance indefinite, but there are many instances in Irish when the article can be left out and the word still be definite in terms of its meaning. Phrases like thar doras (over the door, coming in the doorway) are found; compare thar dhoras (over a door).

I wrote an article published in Éigse (http://www.nui.ie/eigse/volumes/vol40/vol40contents.html) on the definite article and cited phrases like X is ainm dom as among the many instances in Irish where a noun loses the article where it is contextually defined. Just as Father O'Leary wrote is é ainm atá air ná Séadna. I think there is some variation among native speakers on employment of the contextual definition principle, but fundamentally ainm in cad is ainm duit? is a definite noun, defined contextually by cad.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 07 Aug 2021 8:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri 09 Sep 2011 2:06 pm
Posts: 647
djwebb2021 wrote:
Errigal wrote:
"Comhbhunaitheoir do Bhord...": I haven't come across 'do' used in this way outwith relationships involving family, friends, colleagues etc., and using it with a word like 'comhbhunaitheoir' seems strange to me. I haven't read very much in Irish, though, and am happy to be shown otherwise. I'd use 'de chuid' instead, which you could also use with 'peileadóir', although 'le' of course is fine. I don't really know whether repetition of the preposition is necessary here.


Errigal, I see your point and you may be right, but I looked at the 600,000-word corpus of Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh's Irish and couldn't find a single instance of "de chuid" (or do chuid, as it would be spelt in the folklore taken down from him). A word search of 1.5m words of the Irish of Peadar Ua Laoghaire yields no examples It's in FGB, but it's used way, way, way more frequently by learners and translators, because they are translating word for word from English and not speaking natural Irish.

What about: duine de lucht bunaithe (you can find a lot of Google hits in reputable sources for that phrase)

Duine de lucht bunaithe Bhord Peile Dhúiche Ealla (1965) agus an Chéad Uachtarán air (1965-1975)


You mean if it isn't in PUL or AOL it can't be proper Irish? It's in GGBC as well as FGB, so that makes it good enough for me. It's also in De Bhaldraithe: loyalist - fear de chuid an rí. That doesn't sound like learnerese or translatorese to me. Of course, those three books are all CO, therefore unacceptable to you. Anyway what's your basis for saying 'de chuid' is used far more often by learners and translators?

I like "duine de lucht bunaithe..." but as Caoilte says, it's really the same as "duine de bhunaitheoirí..."


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 62 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group