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PostPosted: Sun 29 Nov 2020 1:26 am 
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Hello!

Trying to figure out the proper or original pronunciation of the last name O' Corraidhín - which was apparently the original Gaelic version of Curran, Currain, Cuirin, etc.

I've read conflicting information that it was pronounced Oh-core-een or Oh-core-uh-yeen but know it also could possibly be something else entirely.

As far as I know nobody has used the name in its original form since the 9th century, but if anyone has an idea it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sun 29 Nov 2020 3:40 am 
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gortahork wrote:
Hello!

Trying to figure out the proper or original pronunciation of the last name O' Corraidhín - which was apparently the original Gaelic version of Curran, Currain, Cuirin, etc.

I've read conflicting information that it was pronounced Oh-core-een or Oh-core-uh-yeen but know it also could possibly be something else entirely.

As far as I know nobody has used the name in its original form since the 9th century, but if anyone has an idea it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!


It is not an ancient spelling, it is the Irish spelling (btw: Ó not O')
There's also Mac Corraidhín.

Because of the anglicized forms I'd say -aidhín is contracted in pronunciation to -ín /een/ (in other words: -idh- is silent)
So: Ó Corraín /oh/uh curreen/ (the syllable Corr- is short and at least in Munster unstressed, stress is on -ín. Even anglicised forms as "Creen" exist, i.e. first vowel elided.)


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PostPosted: Sun 29 Nov 2020 4:46 pm 
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Just to add to Labhrás's remarks on where the stress falls (given your user name): in Gortahork/Gort a' Choirce itself and everywhere else in Donegal the stress is on the 'Corr' part: oh-CURR-een.


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PostPosted: Mon 30 Nov 2020 11:35 am 
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Location: 91 - France
So would that be the same origin for the name of Tom Crean ? (we once camped in the field opposite his place in Annascaul)


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PostPosted: Mon 30 Nov 2020 11:48 pm 
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Thanks very much for the replies, I appreciate it!

@Labhrás (or anyone else) do you happen to know anyone currently spelling it Ó Corraidhín? Or just "Corraidhín?"

I read a brief history of the name - could be way off, for sure - but they put that spelling of the name to pre-British invasion. They didn't cite their sources, though, and besides the Ogham script there would have been no alphabet to use to spell it, anyway, so not sure there's much of a way to date that - unless the name was recorded at that date so it's the earliest source and it was Anglicized soon after.

My grandmother's family are Currans, which they all pronounce "CURR-en."

Mac was originally "son of" and Ó was originally "grandson of" - is that correct?

Thanks again!


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PostPosted: Tue 01 Dec 2020 12:57 am 
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gortahork wrote:
Thanks very much for the replies, I appreciate it!

@Labhrás (or anyone else) do you happen to know anyone currently spelling it Ó Corraidhín? Or just "Corraidhín?"


No, I don't. But there are a lot of "Corraidhínigh" if I search for "Ó Corraidhín" on Google.
Just "Corraidhín" as a surname isn't correct Irish. There has to be Ó in front of it - if used with a first name.
Female persons use Ní Chorraidhín, wifes can use (bean) Uí Chorraidhín.

Without a first name, an Corraidhíneach (Curran, Mr. Curran) could be used.
(Tháinig an Corraidhíneach isteach = Curran came in.) - though I don't find any examples of this usage.

gortahork wrote:
I read a brief history of the name - could be way off, for sure - but they put that spelling of the name to pre-British invasion. They didn't cite their sources, though, and besides the Ogham script there would have been no alphabet to use to spell it, anyway, so not sure there's much of a way to date that - unless the name was recorded at that date so it's the earliest source and it was Anglicized soon after.


Irish language was prevalent in Ireland until the 18th/19th century.
That are more than a thousand years using Latin alphabet. ;)

gortahork wrote:
Mac was originally "son of" and Ó was originally "grandson of" - is that correct?


Yes.


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PostPosted: Tue 01 Dec 2020 4:19 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
gortahork wrote:
Thanks very much for the replies, I appreciate it!

@Labhrás (or anyone else) do you happen to know anyone currently spelling it Ó Corraidhín? Or just "Corraidhín?"


No, I don't. But there are a lot of "Corraidhínigh" if I search for "Ó Corraidhín" on Google.
Just "Corraidhín" as a surname isn't correct Irish. There has to be Ó in front of it - if used with a first name.
Female persons use Ní Chorraidhín, wifes can use (bean) Uí Chorraidhín.

Without a first name, an Corraidhíneach (Curran, Mr. Curran) could be used.
(Tháinig an Corraidhíneach isteach = Curran came in.) - though I don't find any examples of this usage.

gortahork wrote:
I read a brief history of the name - could be way off, for sure - but they put that spelling of the name to pre-British invasion. They didn't cite their sources, though, and besides the Ogham script there would have been no alphabet to use to spell it, anyway, so not sure there's much of a way to date that - unless the name was recorded at that date so it's the earliest source and it was Anglicized soon after.


Irish language was prevalent in Ireland until the 18th/19th century.
That are more than a thousand years using Latin alphabet. ;)

gortahork wrote:
Mac was originally "son of" and Ó was originally "grandson of" - is that correct?


Yes.


Thanks again, Labhrás. I was referring to their being no commonly used alphabet before the British invasion to "correctly" spell last names but I just read that it began to be used by missionaries as early as the 5th century, which I didn't know!

You said Corraidhín without the Ó wouldn't be correct, is that in the sense that it wouldn't have been correct when patronymic naming was still the norm or do you mean it still wouldn't be correct now? For example, why would "Curran" as a last name - super common all over the country - be correct, but not the older Irish spelling? Is it a grammatical rule in Irish that makes it incorrect or do you mean incorrect in the sense that it was originally used as "Son" or "Grandson" of the first name "Corraidhín" so incorrect in that it would be using a first name as a last name?


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PostPosted: Tue 01 Dec 2020 8:37 pm 
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gortahork wrote:

You said Corraidhín without the Ó wouldn't be correct, is that in the sense that it wouldn't have been correct when patronymic naming was still the norm or do you mean it still wouldn't be correct now?


Still so.

gortahork wrote:
For example, why would "Curran" as a last name - super common all over the country - be correct, but not the older Irish spelling?


The Older Irish spelling is correct.

gortahork wrote:
Is it a grammatical rule in Irish that makes it incorrect or do you mean incorrect in the sense that it was originally used as "Son" or "Grandson" of the first name "Corraidhín" so incorrect in that it would be using a first name as a last name?


First names aren't used as last names in Irish without Mac or Ó (except foreign names).
That's not a grammatical rule but a habit.
No one has a surname "Néill/Niall" or "Súilleabhá(i)n" but Ó Néill and Ó Súileabháin.
Ó and Mac are pronounced quite weak in native Irish, often just "uh" or "uhk", but they are always there.
Corraidhín is a first name, Ó Corraidhín is a surname.


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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec 2020 5:52 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
gortahork wrote:

You said Corraidhín without the Ó wouldn't be correct, is that in the sense that it wouldn't have been correct when patronymic naming was still the norm or do you mean it still wouldn't be correct now?


Still so.

gortahork wrote:
For example, why would "Curran" as a last name - super common all over the country - be correct, but not the older Irish spelling?


The Older Irish spelling is correct.

gortahork wrote:
Is it a grammatical rule in Irish that makes it incorrect or do you mean incorrect in the sense that it was originally used as "Son" or "Grandson" of the first name "Corraidhín" so incorrect in that it would be using a first name as a last name?


First names aren't used as last names in Irish without Mac or Ó (except foreign names).
That's not a grammatical rule but a habit.
No one has a surname "Néill/Niall" or "Súilleabhá(i)n" but Ó Néill and Ó Súileabháin.
Ó and Mac are pronounced quite weak in native Irish, often just "uh" or "uhk", but they are always there.
Corraidhín is a first name, Ó Corraidhín is a surname.


Thank you, that's so helpful. I really appreciate it. Does that mean that at some point the Ó in Ó Corradhín was dropped and the habit dropped with it as the name was Anglicized into all the different variations? My 3rd great grandfather is listed on the census sheet in the 1850s as "Curran" - and idea how/why the Ó and Mac would have been dropped from the original version?


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PostPosted: Wed 02 Dec 2020 5:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun 29 Nov 2020 1:14 am
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Labhrás wrote:
gortahork wrote:

You said Corraidhín without the Ó wouldn't be correct, is that in the sense that it wouldn't have been correct when patronymic naming was still the norm or do you mean it still wouldn't be correct now?


Still so.

gortahork wrote:
For example, why would "Curran" as a last name - super common all over the country - be correct, but not the older Irish spelling?


The Older Irish spelling is correct.

gortahork wrote:
Is it a grammatical rule in Irish that makes it incorrect or do you mean incorrect in the sense that it was originally used as "Son" or "Grandson" of the first name "Corraidhín" so incorrect in that it would be using a first name as a last name?


First names aren't used as last names in Irish without Mac or Ó (except foreign names).
That's not a grammatical rule but a habit.
No one has a surname "Néill/Niall" or "Súilleabhá(i)n" but Ó Néill and Ó Súileabháin.
Ó and Mac are pronounced quite weak in native Irish, often just "uh" or "uhk", but they are always there.
Corraidhín is a first name, Ó Corraidhín is a surname.


Actually, just read an interesting article in the Irish Times about the subject:

In the 1600s, when English rule intensified, the prefixes O and Mac were widely dropped because it became extremely difficult to find work if you had an Irish sounding name. However, in the 1800s many families began reinstating the O and Mac prefixes. Occasionally, the wrong prefix was adopted, particularly adding an O when the original prefix was Mac.

Curiously, putting back the prefix hardly ever occurred with some surnames. For example, originally Murphy was Ó Murchadha, but rarely appears with the prefix. Murphy has been the most popular Irish surname for at least a century, with the highest concentration now in Co Wexford. But more Murphys live in Britain than in Ireland, with the highest concentration in Liverpool. There are more than 300,000 Murphys in the US, compared to 55,000 in Ireland.

(https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/book ... 20prefixes.)


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