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PostPosted: Wed 30 Oct 2019 9:53 pm 
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Hello all! I just joined earlier and I'm quite excited to be here. This site seems like a really great resource for those of us learning Irish on our own.

So, I was listening to a text (Lesson 16 - "Tráthnóna" from the Mícheál Ó Siadhail book and I noticed that the 'ghr' in "an ghrian" was pronounced /ə ɣ'i:əN/ without the slender 'r'. I'm rather surprised that the broad /ɣ/ isn't used (i.e., /ə ɣr'i:əN/), and a little surprised that it isn't even /ə ɣ'r'i:əN/ since that does seem pronounceable.

Of course, there are other common words where this occurs, such as the the 'dhr' in "an driofúr". So would the same thing happen and the 'r' drop out? So something like /ə ɣ'aur/ ?

Anyway, thank you for reading and have a great day! Go raibh maith agaibh! :)


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PostPosted: Thu 31 Oct 2019 2:11 am 
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If you're on Lesson 16 of Ó Siadhail, you should know by now that neither he or the dialect follow the rules very well. :LOL:

That said, I remember noticing that before. Either the "r" gets incorporated into the consonant group because it's slender or speakers just tend to leave it out because it's easier to say. It's also possible it's so subtle it can hardly be heard. I don't really know. But I think the "ɣ" should be slender in any case, i.e. it's proximal to a slender vowel.

Bríd, one of the translators here, is from there so maybe she could explain it and give you and idea about "dhr" as well.


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PostPosted: Fri 01 Nov 2019 12:53 am 
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tiomluasocein wrote:
If you're on Lesson 16 of Ó Siadhail, you should know by now that neither he or the dialect follow the rules very well. :LOL:

Heheh - I'm actually on L. 24, but I still listen to the previous texts for reinforcement. And for sure...! The dialect has got it's quirks, but it's grown on me.... and it's a nice compromise all around.

tiomluasocein wrote:
That said, I remember noticing that before. Either the "r" gets incorporated into the consonant group because it's slender or speakers just tend to leave it out because it's easier to say. It's also possible it's so subtle it can hardly be heard. I don't really know. But I think the "ɣ" should be slender in any case, i.e. it's proximal to a slender vowel.

It doesn't seem something that would come up a whole lot, but the /ɣ'i:əN/ without the /r'/ was a surprise.

tiomluasocein wrote:
Bríd, one of the translators here, is from there so maybe she could explain it and give you and idea about "dhr" as well.

Cool - I hope she chimes in, it'll be nice to hear from someone who is from those parts. ;)

Thanks for the reply tiomluasocein :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Sun 03 Nov 2019 11:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun 12 Nov 2017 2:55 pm
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It's like slender "ch" but said with your voice behind it, this site has some examples (only two, unfortunately), but you'd have to ask Bríd why it isn't pronounced there.


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PostPosted: Mon 04 Nov 2019 12:18 am 
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Sorry. I can never explain grammar points.
I didn't even notice there wasn't a R until it was pointed out, I thought there was an Irish R there.


This is how I'd say both words.

https://forvo.com/search/dheartháir/
https://forvo.com/word/ghrian/#ga


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Nov 2019 7:53 am 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
Sorry. I can never explain grammar points.
I didn't even notice there wasn't a R until it was pointed out, I thought there was an Irish R there.


This is how I'd say both words.

https://forvo.com/search/dheartháir/
https://forvo.com/word/ghrian/#ga

Hehe - no worries, the sound file was a great help - thank you! :good:


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