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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jul 2019 10:51 pm 
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Hi All,

I'm reading point 567 of The Christian Brothers book "Graiméar na Gaeilge".
Link: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Graim%C3 ... _Chapter_V
It says:

"When the English intransitive infinitive expresses purpose (i.e. the gerundial infinitive), use the preposition 'le', e.g.:

He came to stay = Tháinig sé le fanamhaint
I have a word to say = Tá focal agam le labhairt
You are to wait = Tá tú le feitheamh
I am to go = Táim le dul"

Couple of questions:
1) What exactly is meant by "expresses purpose"? What verbs express purpose?
2) What is a gerundial infinitive in Irish? I have read there are none in Irish.
3) On pg 298 of Micháel Ó'Siadhail, there exists the active prospective aspect which involves the substantive verb with the preposition 'le' e.g.
Tá sé le theacht amáireach = He is to come tomorrow
Bhí sé le leabhair a léamh = He was to read a book

My question for the above is: is the active prospective aspect the same as point 567 from The Christian Brothers (TCB) or in any way related?

Next, point 568 from The Christian Brothers says "When the English verb is transitive and is the simple infinitive (no purpose implied), use the preposition 'do' or the softened form 'a' e.g.

My father told me to buy a house = Dubhairt m'athair liom capall do cheannach

My question for this is: is the form above archaic since the preposition 'a' is used when referring to an object or can it still be used e.g. Dubhairt m'athair liom capall a cheannach

Next, Point 569 in TCB, I don't understand it at all. It says:
"When the English infinitive is transitive, and also expresses purpose, use either 'chun' or 'le' before the noun which is the object of the English infinitive, and 'do' before the verbal noun in Irish; chun takes the noun after it in the genitive e.g.

He came to buy a horse = Tháinig sé le capall do cheannach
He came to buy the horse = Tháinig sé chum an capaill do cheannach
He went to strike the men = Chuaidh sé chun na bhfear do bhualadh
He went to strike the man = Chuaidh se leis an bhfear do bhualadh"

When and how do we use the above examples? Are there specific verbs or situations that it is used for?
Also chum is same as chun, right?
"chun takes the noun after it in the genitive", What does this particular sentence mean? I see capaill is in the genitive case but why? Is is just saying when there is a definitive article, then it becomes genitive?

Lastly, point 565 in TCB says:
"There is still another preposition which can be used between the nouns to express another alteration in meaning-
Tá teach chum comhnuighte = I have a house to live in
Tá capall chum marcuigheacta aige = He has a horse to ride on"

The only explanation I can think that differentiates it might be that the examples end in a preposition. Could that be it or is it something else?
Why is written like this and how would I know when to know it myself?

With all of these examples, I'm looking to understand them all well enough so that I may be able to write my own sentences in each of the different cases.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance.


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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul 2019 1:23 am 
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Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 244
ailig_ab wrote:

1) What exactly is meant by "expresses purpose"? What verbs express purpose? 3) On pg 298 of Micháel Ó'Siadhail - is the active prospective aspect the same as point 567 from The Christian Brothers (TCB) or in any way related?


It means that the subject has some intention to do something as opposed to simply being involved in a passive role. Christian Bros and Ó'Siadhail are using different terminology for the same thing. The opposite of this would be no purposeful intention.

ailig_ab wrote:

2) What is a gerundial infinitive in Irish? I have read there are none in Irish.


I believe Christian Bros is referring to the English usage there, or the equivalent translated form in Irish which would be forms like you showed in the examples.

ailig_ab wrote:

Next, point 568 from The Christian Brothers says "When the English verb is transitive and is the simple infinitive (no purpose implied), use the preposition 'do' or the softened form 'a' e.g.

My father told me to buy a horse = Dubhairt m'athair liom capall do cheannach

My question for this is: is the form above archaic since the preposition 'a' is used when referring to an object or can it still be used e.g. Dubhairt m'athair liom capall a cheannach


Yes, I believe that's right. In TYI page 79, the footnote for this usage points out that it is often pronounced "a" and so written. "do" is archaic in this sense.

ailig_ab wrote:

Next, Point 569 in TCB, I don't understand it at all. It says:
"When the English infinitive is transitive, and also expresses purpose, use either 'chun' or 'le' before the noun which is the object of the English infinitive, and 'do' before the verbal noun in Irish; chun takes the noun after it in the genitive e.g.

He came to buy a horse = Tháinig sé le capall do cheannach
He came to buy the horse = Tháinig sé chum an capaill do cheannach
He went to strike the men = Chuaidh sé chun na bhfear do bhualadh
He went to strike the man = Chuaidh se leis an bhfear do bhualadh"

When and how do we use the above examples? Are there specific verbs or situations that it is used for?
Also chum is same as chun, right?
"chun takes the noun after it in the genitive", What does this particular sentence mean? I see capaill is in the genitive case but why? Is is just saying when there is a definitive article, then it becomes genitive?


In the following situation as shown by the formula

main verb + subject + chun/le + object (gen. after chun) + do + infinitive

the entire part after "chun/le" is what we would call a noun phrase in English: "to buy a/the horse" or "to strike the men". In Irish, the order is different and there are certain grammatical rules you have to follow as far as genitive (always after "chun") and aspiration and so on: (literal translations) "towards a/the horse (genitive) to buy", "with a horse to buy", etc. So when there's an object to the verb (a horse, the man, etc.) and the infinitive shows some intention to do something, you formulate it this way. I'm not sure but I think "chum" is either a misprint here, or spelling which may reflect pronunciation before a vowel. you'll have to ask someone else about that.

ailig_ab wrote:
Lastly, point 565 in TCB says:
"There is still another preposition which can be used between the nouns to express another alteration in meaning-
Tá teach chum comhnuighte = I have a house to live in
Tá capall chum marcuigheacta aige = He has a horse to ride on"

The only explanation I can think that differentiates it might be that the examples end in a preposition. Could that be it or is it something else? Why is written like this and how would I know when to know it myself?


I don't think it has to do with the preposition at the end. Even if you said "I have a house in which to live", "He has a horse on which to ride", it would still be the same sense. Are you sure you didn't leave out "agam" in the first example? Anyway, the sense would be "I have a house for the purpose of living", "He has a horse for the purpose of riding".

I notice "chum" is used here, too. I've seen it used but always thought of it as meaning "towards/for me" but that wouldn't make sense with the contexts here. It may simply just be a reflection of the pronunciation before vowels and certain consonants.

The best thing I can think to learn these and get used to when to use them is to find as many examples as you can and use them until they become second nature. I still make mistakes after these many years because I still think in English and that leads me to ruin. :)


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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul 2019 10:50 am 
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Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1118
ailig_ab wrote:
Couple of questions:
1) What exactly is meant by "expresses purpose"? What verbs express purpose?


I'd think in most cases you could add "in order to" to express purpose in English.
And you can use the irish form with le/chun in all situations you'd use "in order to" in English.

Quote:
Next, point 568 from The Christian Brothers says "When the English verb is transitive and is the simple infinitive (no purpose implied), use the preposition 'do' or the softened form 'a' e.g.

My father told me to buy a house = Dubhairt m'athair liom capall do cheannach

My question for this is: is the form above archaic since the preposition 'a' is used when referring to an object or can it still be used e.g. Dubhairt m'athair liom capall a cheannach


"Do" is archaic in Connacht and Ulster. But not so archaic in Munster where it can be heard sometimes.

Quote:
Next, Point 569 in TCB, I don't understand it at all. It says:
"When the English infinitive is transitive, and also expresses purpose, use either 'chun' or 'le' before the noun which is the object of the English infinitive, and 'do' before the verbal noun in Irish; chun takes the noun after it in the genitive e.g.

He came to buy a horse = Tháinig sé le capall do cheannach
He came to buy the horse = Tháinig sé chum an capaill do cheannach
He went to strike the men = Chuaidh sé chun na bhfear do bhualadh
He went to strike the man = Chuaidh se leis an bhfear do bhualadh"

When and how do we use the above examples? Are there specific verbs or situations that it is used for?
Also chum is same as chun, right?
"chun takes the noun after it in the genitive", What does this particular sentence mean? I see capaill is in the genitive case but why? Is is just saying when there is a definitive article, then it becomes genitive?


If you could add "in order to" in English, use le or chun in Irish
He came (in order) to buy a horse = Tháinig sé le/chun capall a cheannach.
Again. "do" is archaic.
Chun was originally a noun, a verbal noun (dochum > chum > chun), iirc it meant something like "proceeding, going forward". So it requires genitive case even as a preposition (like some other prepositions as fearracht, timpeall, dála)

chun an chapaill = to the horse (lenition is missing in your copy)
chun na mná = to the woman

But in verbal noun phrases as above, genitive isn't used in Connacht, Ulster and Standard Irish - only in Munster.
chun an capall a cheannach = (in order) to buy the horse (Connacht, Ulster, Standard - but "le" prevails in northern dialects anyway)
chun an chapaill a cheannach = (in order) to buy the horse (Munster)

Quote:
Lastly, point 565 in TCB says:
"There is still another preposition which can be used between the nouns to express another alteration in meaning-
Tá teach chum comhnuighte agam = I have a house to live in
Tá capall chum marcuigheacta aige = He has a horse to ride on"

The only explanation I can think that differentiates it might be that the examples end in a preposition. Could that be it or is it something else?
Why is written like this and how would I know when to know it myself?


tá ... agam = I have
tá capall agam = I have a horse
tá capall chun marcíochta agam = I have a horse for riding

The difference to Tá bóthar agam le siúl is obligation.
You can ride your horse but you don't have to.
But you have a road to walk.

I'd think, in English, the preposition at the end alters this meaning:
You have a road to walk on. is different from You have a road to walk.
You have a road to walk on = You can walk on even/paved ground (but you don't have to) -> Tá bóthar chun siúlta agat
You have a road to walk. = There is a distance (on a road) you have to cover. -> Tá bóthar agat le siúl


Last edited by Labhrás on Tue 02 Jul 2019 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul 2019 11:23 am 
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Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1118
tiomluasocein wrote:
I'm not sure but I think "chum" is either a misprint here, or spelling which may reflect pronunciation before a vowel. you'll have to ask someone else about that.


ċum is just the pre reform spelling of chun.


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PostPosted: Wed 03 Jul 2019 2:55 am 
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Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 244
Labhrás wrote:
tiomluasocein wrote:
I'm not sure but I think "chum" is either a misprint here, or spelling which may reflect pronunciation before a vowel. you'll have to ask someone else about that.


ċum is just the pre reform spelling of chun.


Go raibh maith agat, a chara.


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PostPosted: Wed 03 Jul 2019 2:56 am 
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Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 244
Labhrás wrote:
ailig_ab wrote:
Couple of questions:
1) What exactly is meant by "expresses purpose"? What verbs express purpose?


I'd think in most cases you could add "in order to" to express purpose in English.
And you can use the irish form with le/chun in all situations you'd use "in order to" in English.

Quote:
Next, point 568 from The Christian Brothers says "When the English verb is transitive and is the simple infinitive (no purpose implied), use the preposition 'do' or the softened form 'a' e.g.

My father told me to buy a house = Dubhairt m'athair liom capall do cheannach

My question for this is: is the form above archaic since the preposition 'a' is used when referring to an object or can it still be used e.g. Dubhairt m'athair liom capall a cheannach


"Do" is archaic in Connacht and Ulster. But not so archaic in Munster where it can be heard sometimes.

Quote:
Next, Point 569 in TCB, I don't understand it at all. It says:
"When the English infinitive is transitive, and also expresses purpose, use either 'chun' or 'le' before the noun which is the object of the English infinitive, and 'do' before the verbal noun in Irish; chun takes the noun after it in the genitive e.g.

He came to buy a horse = Tháinig sé le capall do cheannach
He came to buy the horse = Tháinig sé chum an capaill do cheannach
He went to strike the men = Chuaidh sé chun na bhfear do bhualadh
He went to strike the man = Chuaidh se leis an bhfear do bhualadh"

When and how do we use the above examples? Are there specific verbs or situations that it is used for?
Also chum is same as chun, right?
"chun takes the noun after it in the genitive", What does this particular sentence mean? I see capaill is in the genitive case but why? Is is just saying when there is a definitive article, then it becomes genitive?


If you could add "in order to" in English, use le or chun in Irish
He came (in order) to buy a horse = Tháinig sé le/chun capall a cheannach.
Again. "do" is archaic.
Chun was originally a noun, a verbal noun (dochum > chum > chun), iirc it meant something like "proceeding, going forward". So it requires genitive case even as a preposition (like some other prepositions as fearracht, timpeall, dála)

chun an chapaill = to the horse (lenition is missing in your copy)
chun na mná = to the woman

But in verbal noun phrases as above, genitive isn't used in Connacht, Ulster and Standard Irish - only in Munster.
chun an capall a cheannach = (in order) to buy the horse (Connacht, Ulster, Standard - but "le" prevails in northern dialects anyway)
chun an chapaill a cheannach = (in order) to buy the horse (Munster)

Quote:
Lastly, point 565 in TCB says:
"There is still another preposition which can be used between the nouns to express another alteration in meaning-
Tá teach chum comhnuighte agam = I have a house to live in
Tá capall chum marcuigheacta aige = He has a horse to ride on"

The only explanation I can think that differentiates it might be that the examples end in a preposition. Could that be it or is it something else?
Why is written like this and how would I know when to know it myself?


tá ... agam = I have
tá capall agam = I have a horse
tá capall chun marcíochta agam = I have a horse for riding

The difference to Tá bóthar agam le siúl is obligation.
You can ride your horse but you don't have to.
But you have a road to walk.

I'd think, in English, the preposition at the end alters this meaning:
You have a road to walk on. is different from You have a road to walk.
You have a road to walk on = You can walk on even/paved ground (but you don't have to) -> Tá bóthar chun siúlta agat
You have a road to walk. = There is a distance (on a road) you have to cover. -> Tá bóthar agat le siúl


Good explanations and examples. GRMA.


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