It is currently Sun 21 Jul 2019 10:03 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Shall I ...?
PostPosted: Mon 01 Jul 2019 11:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 244
"Shall I/we . . .?" is different from some of the other examples mentioned above because it's not asking for permission (can, may, etc.) or "advice" (should, etc.) I can only think of it as meaning "I'm going to open the window" or "Let's open the window" but in a very polite way in the form of a question and you wouldn't expect someone to answer no. If they did say no, it would be as a joke. You're asking politely for agreement. In Irish, I don't know if this is necessary or not. i.e. to soften the "agreement" to do something.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shall I ...?
PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul 2019 12:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:44 pm
Posts: 3502
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California, USA
galaxyrocker wrote:
Going into the varieties of American English... I definitely would say "Should I" instead of "Shall I", speaking Southern American English. "Should I open the window?" But, I'm also the weird one with reflexive datives and double modals: He might should get him something for that cough.


I use "shall" in such instances (e.g., "shall I get the phone?"). It may be generational, though...I'm on the downhill side of 50.

Redwolf


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shall I ...?
PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul 2019 1:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 244
Redwolf wrote:
galaxyrocker wrote:
Going into the varieties of American English... I definitely would say "Should I" instead of "Shall I", speaking Southern American English. "Should I open the window?" But, I'm also the weird one with reflexive datives and double modals: He might should get him something for that cough.


I use "shall" in such instances (e.g., "shall I get the phone?"). It may be generational, though...I'm on the downhill side of 50.

Redwolf


You're still a spring chicken. :) But you are right, I notice I use it, too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shall I ...?
PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul 2019 4:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm
Posts: 2763
ailig_ab wrote:
"The same applies to "May I", most people today say "Can I" even though it should have two different meanings like it does in other languages. "May I" - is asking permission, "Can I" - is physically being able to do something."

Bríd mhór, from what you have said, would I be right to definitively state that there is no equivalent way of saying "May I ..." in Irish?

For example, if I were to say "An bhfuil cead agam deoch a fháil". I take that to translate to "Can I get a drink"

Could the above also be translated as "May I get a drink" or is there a direct translation to say "May I get a drink" that isn't "An bhfuil cead agam deoch a fháil"?


"An bhfuil cead agam deoch a fháil?" = "May I get a drink?" Because you are asking permission.

"An féidir liom cabhrú leat?" An bhfuil mé in ann cabhrú leat?" = "Can I help you?"
You are asking if you are able to do something (possibly physically) to help.

That distinction is in Welsh too.

But "may I?" is rarely used in English anymore. And like "Shall I?" to some it sounds pretentious. But I use it anyhow :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shall I ...?
PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul 2019 5:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri 08 Jan 2016 11:37 pm
Posts: 119
Bríd Mhór wrote:
"An bhfuil cead agam deoch a fháil?" = "May I get a drink?" Because you are asking permission.

"An féidir liom cabhrú leat?" An bhfuil mé in ann cabhrú leat?" = "Can I help you?"
You are asking if you are able to do something (possibly physically) to help.


That makes sense – and confirms my understanding of such questions – since cead means ‘permission’ and féidir ‘possible’. I still wonder how the verb féad fits into all this though.

How would you translate an bhféadfainn cabhrú leat?, is this asking for permission/consent or about ability? Is it used commonly at all?

And if so, how would it differ from an bhféadaim…?, is it politeness like English can I? vs could I?, or does it also differ in the meaning in permission / ability?

edit: is it like féidir (the words are cognates), expressing ability, but is féidir le is preferred over féad, and thus the latter is rarely used?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shall I ...?
PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul 2019 6:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm
Posts: 2763
silmeth wrote:
Bríd Mhór wrote:
"An bhfuil cead agam deoch a fháil?" = "May I get a drink?" Because you are asking permission.

"An féidir liom cabhrú leat?" An bhfuil mé in ann cabhrú leat?" = "Can I help you?"
You are asking if you are able to do something (possibly physically) to help.


That makes sense – and confirms my understanding of such questions – since cead means ‘permission’ and féidir ‘possible’. I still wonder how the verb féad fits into all this though.

How would you translate an bhféadfainn cabhrú leat?, is this asking for permission/consent or about ability? Is it used commonly at all?

And if so, how would it differ from an bhféadaim…?, is it politeness like English can I? vs could I?, or does it also differ in the meaning in permission / ability?

edit: is it like féidir (the words are cognates), expressing ability, but is féidir le is preferred over féad, and thus the latter is rarely used?



An bhféadfainn cabhrú leat? - Would I be able to help you? Yes very common. But you can use it in the same context as "Can I help you?" in English. You don't always have to use the same tense to convey the meaning desired.

an bhféadaim…? - We don't say that in Conamara. Maybe it's a Munsterism.


The Irish language is more straightforward, less polite speech, than English. Some of that is coming into Irish by copying English mannerisms and usage.

We just come out and say what we mean. Compare how more common swearing is in Irish speaking areas, whereas the British English would be shocked, and to some extent so would English speaking Irish people who have to a large extent adapted English culture.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shall I ...?
PostPosted: Wed 03 Jul 2019 2:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 244
de Bhaldraithe has

(Deference to another) Shall I open the window? an bhfuil dochar ar bith an fhuinneog a oscailt, ar mhiste leat mé a fhoscailt na fuinneoige?

Still, it shows "deference" and I don't get that sense at all. It's more like a shared "Let's" or "Shall we" feeling to me.

As far as the Irish goes, I would defer to Bríd's sense of how to express it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shall I ...?
PostPosted: Wed 03 Jul 2019 7:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm
Posts: 2763
Ar mhiste leat?
Ar cuma leat?
- more common in Conamara
Both mean "Do you mind..?"
I'm not sure you'd call it deference though. But you are still asking for permission, even though you might feel quite sure you won't get refused.

There are words in languages that just don't have an exact translation in another. I think that's the case with "Shall I?". But the above might be the next best thing.

I'm certainly no expert on grammatical points.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group