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PostPosted: Wed 03 Jul 2019 5:43 pm 
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To add to the confusion it would be "á dhéanamh" in Cork.

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The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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PostPosted: Wed 03 Jul 2019 7:03 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
To add to the confusion it would be "á dhéanamh" in Cork.


Like in cad ’ tánn tú á dhéanamh?, an rud atáim á dhéanamh?

Ha, I did forsee this one in my first post. :P (but didn’t really expect that in Munster)


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Jul 2019 2:38 pm 
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silmeth wrote:
An Lon Dubh wrote:
To add to the confusion it would be "á dhéanamh" in Cork.


Like in cad ’ tánn tú á dhéanamh?, an rud atáim á dhéanamh?

Ha, I did forsee this one in my first post. :P (but didn’t really expect that in Munster)


:??:
I can't imagine them to be correct.
Does anybody have original examples?

I could only imagine:
Cad atá tú a dhéanamh?
Cad atá tú ag déanamh?
Cad a bhfuil tú á dhéanamh?
Cad atá á dhéanamh agat?


(in bold those forms a prescriptive grammar would recognise as correct. ;))


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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul 2019 8:54 am 
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Basically they only say "Cad 'tá á dhéanamh agat?" never the structures with "a dhéanamh" and "ag déanamh".

Some younger speakers don't say the "agat" and say "tú" as the subject instead, but this isn't really a dialect feature I think it's just the language being in a very weak state.

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The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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PostPosted: Sat 23 May 2020 6:12 pm 
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I’ve revisited the language notes in the Introduction to Stories from Keating’s History of Ireland and found an interesting relevant part on such relatives in Keating’s Early Modern Irish – the page xv, § Subsitutes for the relative:

Stories from Keating’s History of Ireland the page xv, § Subsitutes for the relative wrote:
(b) More important is the construction connected with verbal nouns. ‘You are building a house' may be translated in the language of Keating ataoi ag tógbháil tighe, lit. ‘thou art at erection of house.’ But we cannot turn ‘the house which you are building’ into the form ‘the house of which thou art at erection.’ The rel. implied by a verbal form is either nom. or acc. (with atá, of course, only nom.) and tógbháil, like any other noun, governs only the gen.; hence an teach ataoi ag tógbháil is as faulty as ataoi ag tógbháil teach. To avoid the difficulty there are three types in Early Modem Irish:

A. an teach agá dtaoi thógbháil.
B. an teach ataoi do thógbháil.
C. an teach atá agat dá thógbháil.

Of these A becomes rare after the Middle Irish period. C is the most logical; but it is not common in the literature,¹ and is now confined to certain districts. In B the rel. ataoi is inserted in the phrase an teach do thógbháil. There are two examples in the Stories: na bhfileadh ataoi do thafann, ‘of the poets whom thou art banishing,’ 23, 144; and an Colam Cille atámaid do luadh, ‘the Colam Cille whom we are mentioning,’ 24, I.

This is still the common idiom, with the usual colloquial reduction of do before verbal nouns to a: an obair atáim a dhéanamh; ag for a in such phrases is a solecism unknown to the speech² or the literature, and dhá is probably a pedantic assimilation to type C.


¹ Keating uses it in Three Shafts 7826: is í an ghorta so atá ag Dia dá bagar ar na peacthachaibh úd.
² At least in Ireland, but it has come into Scottish Gaelic from the non-relative construction.


So the author claims that an teach atáim a thógáil is the historically ‘correct’ form and an teach atáim ag tógáil is just a later levelling to táim ag tógáil an tí, while a thógáil in the former is a part of the construction an teach a/do thógáil (infinitive-like ‘to build a house’?).

If so, I still fail to see how it is any more logical that the latter. If you cannot say an teach atáim ag tógáil because you cannot say *táim ag tógáil an teach, then by the same logic an teach atáim do thógáil doesn’t make sense because you cannot say *táim do thógáil an teach nor *táim an teach do thógáil. So it still to me seems to be some confusion of ag and do and allowing an accusative direct object to verbal nouns in relative clauses, I don’t see any reason why an teach atáim ag tógáil would be a later corruption of earlier an teach atáim do thógáil.

C. is the typical passive Munster form (cad tá á dhéanamh agat?, an teach atá á thógáil agat).

But A. is an interesting one to me as well – I am not entirely sure how to understand it: it has an eclipsing relative particle a in agá (but why the second vowel long?), uses dependent taoi (instead of indep. ataoi; but interesting that still not bhfuil) and for some reason lenited thógbháil.

I guess that it lenites the verbal noun because there is a possessive pronoun a ‘its, his’ present that’s not written out?

I guess the possessive a ‘its’ is merged with ag ‘at’ and the relative particle a ‘which’ into agá ‘at whose; at-its-which’ – did this happen in Middle Irish or very early Early Modern Irish? Could this trigger lenition of a word further in a sentence? Or am I guessing entirely wrong here? Wish the book wrote more about this variant…

If I’m right, and it meant literally ‘at whose – ­you are – building = at whose building you are’, it cannot be rephrased directly in modern Irish (*an teach ag a a bhfuil tú thógáil isn’t possible) – but it would be equivalent to the indirect construction *an teach a bhfuil tú á thógáil I proposed in the first post.


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