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 Post subject: ia vs ío
PostPosted: Wed 06 Mar 2019 3:53 pm 
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I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the Irish sound system but this is one area where I'm not sure.

Are the words an phian and an fíon pronounced identically do you think?

I can't think of more examples off the top of my head.

Go raibh maith agaibh.


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 Post subject: Re: ia vs ío
PostPosted: Wed 06 Mar 2019 9:42 pm 
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Suairc wrote:
I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the Irish sound system but this is one area where I'm not sure.

Are the words an phian and an fíon pronounced identically do you think?

I can't think of more examples off the top of my head.

Go raibh maith agaibh.


They're close, but they are not identical, not in Conamara Irish anyhow.


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 Post subject: Re: ia vs ío
PostPosted: Wed 06 Mar 2019 10:41 pm 
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Is dóigh liom go bhfuaimnithear "an phian" mar /ə f'i:ən/ agus "an fíon" mar /ə 'f'i:n/ i dTír Chonaill.

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 Post subject: Re: ia vs ío
PostPosted: Thu 07 Mar 2019 11:21 am 
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Suairc wrote:
I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the Irish sound system but this is one area where I'm not sure.

Are the words an phian and an fíon pronounced identically do you think?

I can't think of more examples off the top of my head.

Go raibh maith agaibh.


I'd say "ia" is a real diphthong ([] + [ə]), so [iːə],
but "ío" is [] + on-glide [ə] before velar consonants, so [ə].

The usual phon. transliteration is /p´iːən/ an /f´iːn/.

In reality, both are very close or even the same because [ə~ə] can be stronger or weaker.

https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fuaim/f%C3%ADon
https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fuaim/pian
(acc, to these sound samples the difference is bigger in Tír Chonaill than in southern dialects)


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 Post subject: Re: ia vs ío
PostPosted: Thu 07 Mar 2019 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri 18 Nov 2016 11:41 am
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Thanks guys.

Labhrás wrote:
Suairc wrote:
I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the Irish sound system but this is one area where I'm not sure.

Are the words an phian and an fíon pronounced identically do you think?

I can't think of more examples off the top of my head.

Go raibh maith agaibh.


I'd say "ia" is a real diphthong ([] + [ə]), so [iːə],
but "ío" is [] + on-glide [ə] before velar consonants, so [ə].

The usual phon. transliteration is /p´iːən/ an /f´iːn/.

In reality, both are very close or even the same because [ə~ə] can be stronger or weaker.


Thanks for that, Labhrás. From what I've heard they seem pretty much identical in most cases. I think some speakers may have a more perceptible glide then others in the case of i: (sorry, not sure how to do the minuscule schwa or glide).

Also, I have a feeling that underdifferentiation of the diphthong i:∂ from long vowel i: may also be a factor? What do you think? I'm only shooting from the hip here! :)


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 Post subject: Re: ia vs ío
PostPosted: Fri 08 Mar 2019 8:38 pm 
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Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
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Suairc wrote:
Thanks guys.

Labhrás wrote:
In reality, both are very close or even the same because [ə~ə] can be stronger or weaker.


Thanks for that, Labhrás. From what I've heard they seem pretty much identical in most cases. I think some speakers may have a more perceptible glide then others in the case of i: (sorry, not sure how to do the minuscule schwa or glide).

Also, I have a feeling that underdifferentiation of the diphthong i:∂ from long vowel i: may also be a factor? What do you think? I'm only shooting from the hip here! :)


Yes, that's what I meant by "[ə]~[ə] can be stronger or weaker"

(Though a more usual way for "ia" to monopthongize is to become [e:], not [i:])


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 Post subject: Re: ia vs ío
PostPosted: Wed 13 Mar 2019 9:40 pm 
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Joined: Fri 18 Nov 2016 11:41 am
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Many thanks for the clarification, Labhrás! :good:


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