It is currently Sun 24 Mar 2019 11:57 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun 03 Mar 2019 2:05 pm 
Online

Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1044
tiomluasocein wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
tiomluasocein wrote:
It's spelled Ogam or Ogham. I grew up with the spelling Ogham. Ogam is closer to the original Irish spelling. I don't know why an "h" was put in there.


Because the Modern Irish form is ogham and it is pronounced as such (/o:m/).


An dtagann an litriú an Bhéarla ón Ghaeilge mar sin?


Tagann.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 03 Mar 2019 7:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm
Posts: 2749
Labhrás wrote:
tiomluasocein wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
tiomluasocein wrote:
It's spelled Ogam or Ogham. I grew up with the spelling Ogham. Ogam is closer to the original Irish spelling. I don't know why an "h" was put in there.


Because the Modern Irish form is ogham and it is pronounced as such (/o:m/).


An dtagann an litriú an Bhéarla ón Ghaeilge mar sin?


Tagann.


In the pre-1950s spelling it would be ogham or og(dot)am.

Then they took out a lot of those silent letters. And replaced some with an accent. Like before the spelling reform my name was Brighid or Brig(dot)id, they took out the GH and put an accent on the i so now it's Bríd. The name Donnchadha changed to Donncha. etc. I prefer the older spellings. It made more sense. And the modern spelling also alienated the older speakers.
The modern Irish for ogham is probably "óm".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 04 Mar 2019 4:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 179
Bríd Mhór wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
tiomluasocein wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
tiomluasocein wrote:
It's spelled Ogam or Ogham. I grew up with the spelling Ogham. Ogam is closer to the original Irish spelling. I don't know why an "h" was put in there.


Because the Modern Irish form is ogham and it is pronounced as such (/o:m/).


An dtagann an litriú an Bhéarla ón Ghaeilge mar sin?


Tagann.


In the pre-1950s spelling it would be ogham or og(dot)am.

Then they took out a lot of those silent letters. And replaced some with an accent. Like before the spelling reform my name was Brighid or Brig(dot)id, they took out the GH and put an accent on the i so now it's Bríd. The name Donnchadha changed to Donncha. etc. I prefer the older spellings. It made more sense. And the modern spelling also alienated the older speakers.
The modern Irish for ogham is probably "óm".


I'm aware of all that. Previously, I didn't clearly say what my full question was because I didn't think this was the place for it. Why did "ogam" become "ogham"? I haven't found a satisfactory answer for that since I haven't yet had the time to go back and look at the phonetic changes from Old Irish onwards: did "g" normally become "gh" across the board or was there some influence from another language like English? Did the spelling "ogham" come directly from Irish or was the spelling already in English and shared between the two languages? Being familiar with the Munster dialect, I see so many examples of English and French influence, so I was just wondering. This is all rhethorical, by the way, and if anyone would like to really explore this we can make another thread. Otherwise, it's something I can pursue on my own.

Bríd and Labhrás, what do you think of the idea of Elizabeth using the Old Irish word "sceola" to mean "survivor"? Any ideas on using ogham to write it for a tattoo?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 04 Mar 2019 2:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed 27 Feb 2019 4:58 pm
Posts: 10
This information on how the old Irish language has changed is so interesting. With it being so old and Pagan (if I am correct (?) I wonder if the introduction of religion influenced the changes. Just a thought.

And yes, I would like to know Bríd's and Labhrás's opinion also.
Also, how do you pronounce your names, if I can ask? Eliz


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 04 Mar 2019 2:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 179
Eliz McD. wrote:
This information on how the old Irish language has changed is so interesting. With it being so old and Pagan (if I am correct (?) I wonder if the introduction of religion influenced the changes. Just a thought.


Here's a page on religion in Ireland from the early days: http://www.irishhistorylinks.net/More_L ... igion.html
I've always been fascinated by how the Irish dealt with religion but I can't really remember much of what I read with certainty. The impression I got from reading about it is that there was often a mix of pagan and Christian beliefs. Women also had strong leadership roles. I'm sure someone around here can tell you more.

Quote:
And yes, I would like to know Bríd's and Labhrás's opinion also.
Also, how do you pronounce your names, if I can ask? Eliz


I go by Tim. I'll let the others speak for themselves. :D

Here's an interesting saying using "sceola" that you may want to check out: https://www.sengoidelc.com/ni-gnath-orgain-cen-sceola This phrase comes from "Scél Tuain meic Cairill" (The Story of Tuan mac Cairill) explained here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuan_mac_Cairill His story ties in with your question about paganism because, according to the story, he converted to Christianity.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 04 Mar 2019 3:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 22 Dec 2011 6:28 am
Posts: 142
Location: Corcaigh
tiomluasocein wrote:

I'm aware of all that. Previously, I didn't clearly say what my full question was because I didn't think this was the place for it. Why did "ogam" become "ogham"? I haven't found a satisfactory answer for that since I haven't yet had the time to go back and look at the phonetic changes from Old Irish onwards: did "g" normally become "gh" across the board or was there some influence from another language like English? Did the spelling "ogham" come directly from Irish or was the spelling already in English and shared between the two languages? Being familiar with the Munster dialect, I see so many examples of English and French influence, so I was just wondering. This is all rhethorical, by the way, and if anyone would like to really explore this we can make another thread. Otherwise, it's something I can pursue on my own.


I think I covered this in my last post, but yes, the spelling, ogham, is just a modern Irish rendering of the older ogam. Lenition wouldn't have been shown in the Old Irish form, but would still have been there. The english spelling and pronunciation are the same as the modern Irish.

Ade wrote:
The lenition after the g is implied in Old Irish, where the word would be rendered ogam. The letter g doesn't typically show lenition, but it is to be assumed when it's surrounded by vowels within a word. This is where the modern spelling comes from, it just shows the lenition which was always there. As regards pronunciation, the lenited g of old Irish would have been voiced, similar to a word beginning with a lenited g in Modern Irish.


Another thread on changes between Old and Modern Irish would be very interesting.

Eliz McD. wrote:
This information on how the old Irish language has changed is so interesting. With it being so old and Pagan (if I am correct (?) I wonder if the introduction of religion influenced the changes. Just a thought.

And yes, I would like to know Bríd's and Labhrás's opinion also.
Also, how do you pronounce your names, if I can ask? Eliz


Writing is believed to have been brought to Ireland by early christians. Anything that was written in Ireland, even about Irish mythology, would have therefore been written by christians. They may depict a former pagan people in some cases, like the story of Tuan mac Cairill, but often this is to get across a christian message, as, again, with the story of Tuan mac Cairill who survived just long enough to meet early christian saints (St. Patrick, St. Colum Cille, and St. Finnian of Moville) and be converted to christianity. This is a common theme in Irish mythology. King Conchobhar of the Ulaid is said to have baptised himself in his own blood as he died right after hearing the story of Christ and saying that he would have not let him be crucified had he been present.

The reason I write all of this is to make the one point. There is some amount of paganism depicted in Early Irish writings, but it was all written by christians. As such, sound changes in the language over time have little to do with christianity, and almost nothing to do with paganism. However, the language itself predates christianity in Ireland and it is very evident that words were brought into Irish from Latin by christians for things with either didn't exist, or were not common in Ireland before the arrival of christianity. Some such borrowings include lebor (book), ór (gold), and sacart (priest) from the latin terms, liber, aurum and sacerdos.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 04 Mar 2019 4:49 pm 
Online

Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1044
Bríd Mhór wrote:
In the pre-1950s spelling it would be ogham or og(dot)am.


oġam

Quote:
Then they took out a lot of those silent letters. And replaced some with an accent. Like before the spelling reform my name was Brighid or Brig(dot)id,


Briġid

Quote:
they took out the GH and put an accent on the i so now it's Bríd. The name Donnchadha changed to Donncha. etc. I prefer the older spellings. It made more sense. And the modern spelling also alienated the older speakers.
The modern Irish for ogham is probably "óm".


No, the spelling is still ogham.
"ogh" survived the spelling reform afaik completely, probably because of different pronunciations in the dialects (often /au/ in southern dialects, e.g. foghlaim / foġlaim, /faulim/ in Munster.
I don't know: Do they say /aum/ for ogham in Munster, too?)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 05 Mar 2019 12:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 179
Elizabeth asked Labhrás and Bríd how to pronounce their names.

And do you think "sceola" is a good idea for her tattoo?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 05 Mar 2019 12:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed 27 Feb 2019 4:58 pm
Posts: 10
Hi, again. I'm so grateful for all I'm learning about the Irish language.
I completely forgot to ask how to phonetically pronounce 'sceola'. I looked at the links provided, but can't figure this out. Can someone help me with this?
Thanks!! Elizabeth


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 06 Mar 2019 5:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 11:36 pm
Posts: 179
Eliz McD. wrote:
Hi, again. I'm so grateful for all I'm learning about the Irish language.
I completely forgot to ask how to phonetically pronounce 'sceola'. I looked at the links provided, but can't figure this out. Can someone help me with this?
Thanks!! Elizabeth


Elizabeth, I've seen it written with no accent, with accent on the "e", and with accent on the "o". Someone may be able to explain why exactly but I suspect the differences are either dialectal or have changed through time. I don't have enough information right now to answer these questions. BUT . . . temporarily I can give you a rough idea of a pronunciation and someone else can comment and give more ideas:

Since the modern term for story is "scéal", "scéola" may be right, pronounced almost like SCALE-uh.
The other possibility puts emphasis on the "o" (sceóla), pronounced almost like SKYO-luh.

"Sceola" doesn't indicate which vowel, "e" or "o" is the main one. In my limited experience with the historical language, the emphasis could have shifted. If I find out more I will let you know. Suffice it to say that, for now, SCALE-uh or SKYO-luh would not be far from a proper pronuncation, and if anyone asks, you can explain all this stuff. Or just say "Here, read this" and show them this post. :)

We're haven't gotten any more input on this yet. I guess everyone is busy. Ade and I both think it's a good idea. I've never seen this word in a tattoo before and it has an interesting history sourced in the words of a true Irish mythical figure, Tuan Mac Cairill, who shape-shifted into various animals in order to live for a long, long time.

Wait a bit more for other ideas, opinions, etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Labhrás and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group