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 Post subject: Proofing for Website
PostPosted: Fri 11 Jan 2019 3:10 am 
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Joined: Thu 22 Dec 2011 6:28 am
Posts: 119
Location: Corcaigh
Hi all,

I've recently put a website online containing the Würzburg Irish Glosses, written in Old Irish and Latin.

I decided the main interface of the site should be through Irish and I translated the About and Acknowledgements pages yesterday.

If anybody has the time to take a look at these and let me know if there are any obvious errors in my translation, I'd really appreciate it.

Links to the pages:
https://wuerzburg.ie/about.html
https://wuerzburg.ie/acknos.html

Le meas,
Adrian.


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 Post subject: Re: Proofing for Website
PostPosted: Mon 14 Jan 2019 3:33 pm 
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Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 995
Quote:
téacs Laidine na n-Eipistilí Naomh Phóil

Naomh Pól (no lenition following Naomh and no genitive form)
Eipistilí Naomh Pól = the Epistles of St Paul (no article because St Paul is already definite and so are his epistles and so is their Latin text already definite)

btw: If article "na" would be correct it should be na nEip... (no hyphen).

Quote:
Mar sin, tá an díolaim seo ar na díolamaí móra is sine.

I'd write ... ar cheann de na díolamaí móra is sine (less puzzling)
and I'd add ... i nGaeilge (In the English version you write " written in Irish")

Quote:
eille

eile

Quote:
mar ball de obair

mar bhall d’obair

Quote:
le Ollscoil na hÉireann

le hOllscoil ...

Quote:
ostáilte leis an Lárionad Insight Anailísíochta Sonraíochta

óstáilte ag an Ionad Anailísíochta Sonraí Insight

Quote:
foilsiú téacs dhigitigh na ngluaiseanna Würzburg

téacs digiteach ghluaiseanna Würzburg a fhoilsiú


Edit: lenition of "gluaiseanna" was missing.


Last edited by Labhrás on Wed 16 Jan 2019 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Proofing for Website
PostPosted: Tue 15 Jan 2019 4:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu 22 Dec 2011 6:28 am
Posts: 119
Location: Corcaigh
Go raih míle maith agat, a Labhrás!

I really appreciate you catching those errors for me. I have a couple of follow up questions on some of your answers, just to fill in my own understanding.

Labhrás wrote:
Eipistilí Naomh Pól = the Epistles of St Paul (no article because St Paul is already definite and so are his epistles and so is their Latin text already definite)


Does that mean I should also change the title of the main page to Gluaiseanna Würzburg Eipistilí Phóil?

Labhrás wrote:
téacs digiteach gluaiseanna Würzburg a fhoilsiú


Does the adjective not have to be in the genitive following "...foilsiú téacs", or can foilsiú not be used in that position?

Many thanks again for all your help.


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 Post subject: Re: Proofing for Website
PostPosted: Tue 15 Jan 2019 9:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 995
Ade wrote:
Go raih míle maith agat, a Labhrás!

I really appreciate you catching those errors for me. I have a couple of follow up questions on some of your answers, just to fill in my own understanding.

Labhrás wrote:
Eipistilí Naomh Pól = the Epistles of St Paul (no article because St Paul is already definite and so are his epistles and so is their Latin text already definite)


Does that mean I should also change the title of the main page to Gluaiseanna Würzburg Eipistilí Phóil?


Yes, you should.

Quote:
Labhrás wrote:
téacs digiteach ghluaiseanna Würzburg a fhoilsiú


Does the adjective not have to be in the genitive following "...foilsiú téacs", or can foilsiú not be used in that position?

Many thanks again for all your help.

I turned the order because I'd think it is more natural to say

"Cheadaigh X an rud a fhoilsiú" instead of
"Cheadaigh X foilsiú an ruda"

So: Cheadaigh X téacs digiteach ghluaiseanna Würzburg a fhoilsiú

But if you would use foilsiú first:

Cheadaigh X foilsiú théacs digiteach ghluaiseanna Würzburg

foilsiú is here a normal noun, "publication".
Three nouns in genitive relation are following: téacs, gluaiseanna, Würzburg.
But only the last is in genitive form: Würzburg.
Unfortunately it doesn't have a special genitive form in Irish ;) So, it is still "Würzburg".
All other nouns (and their adjectives) don't change at all. No genitive form is used, so it is still "digiteach".
Except for lenition: all nouns are lenited if possible, so "théacs [...] ghluaiseanna Würzburg"


Last edited by Labhrás on Wed 16 Jan 2019 12:32 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Proofing for Website
PostPosted: Tue 15 Jan 2019 10:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri 08 Jan 2016 11:37 pm
Posts: 83
Would it be possible to avoid multiple genitive with de here? Like foilsiú téacs dhigitigh de ghluaiseanna Würzburg?

I’ve seen some instances, i think in Mo sgéal féin, where I’d expect series of genitives, phrases split with de this way, I wonder how universal that it, what are limitations to replacing genitives with de.


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 Post subject: Re: Proofing for Website
PostPosted: Wed 16 Jan 2019 12:28 am 
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Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 995
silmeth wrote:
Would it be possible to avoid multiple genitive with de here? Like foilsiú téacs dhigitigh de ghluaiseanna Würzburg?

I’ve seen some instances, i think in Mo sgéal féin, where I’d expect series of genitives, phrases split with de this way, I wonder how universal that it, what are limitations to replacing genitives with de.

I’m sure good speakers would find a way to break up such genitive strings with the help of prepositions.
But they wouldn’t simply insert "de".

"De" is partitive. So any genitive must have a partitive meaning in order to be exchanged by "de".
Otherwise it is not possible or the meaning changes, too

"foilsiú téacs de ghluaiseanna Würzburg" means rather "publication of one of the texts of the W. glosses"


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 Post subject: Re: Proofing for Website
PostPosted: Wed 16 Jan 2019 1:15 pm 
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Joined: Thu 22 Dec 2011 6:28 am
Posts: 119
Location: Corcaigh
Labhrás wrote:
foilsiú is here a normal noun, "publication".
Three nouns in genitive relation are following: téacs, gluaiseanna, Würzburg.
But only the last is in genitive form: Würzburg.
Unfortunately it doesn't have a special genitive form in Irish ;) So, it is still "Würzburg".
All other nouns (and their adjectives) don't change at all. No genitive form is used, so it is still "digiteach".
Except for lenition: all nouns are lenited if possible, so "théacs [...] ghluaiseanna Würzburg"


Ar dtús, go raibh míle maith agat as do fhreagra.

I'm a bit confused about the difference between nouns in the genitive case following nouns in the genitive case, and successive nouns in genitive relation.

Why would all of the nouns not be in the genitive case and show their genitive form?


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 Post subject: Re: Proofing for Website
PostPosted: Wed 16 Jan 2019 1:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri 08 Jan 2016 11:37 pm
Posts: 83
Ade wrote:
Ar dtús, go raibh míle maith agat as do fhreagra.

I'm a bit confused about the difference between nouns in the genitive case following nouns in the genitive case, and successive nouns in genitive relation.

Why would all of the nouns not be in the genitive case and show their genitive form?


Irish – since at least Early Modern Irish and I think much earlier – avoids multiple genitives, and when such situation happens grammatically, only the last noun is put in true genitive form, while all the previous nouns are in lenited nominative – and such a lenited nominative is called a functional genitive, as it fulfills the role of a genitive, but doesn’t have a form of one. As often, there are exceptions, especially verbal nouns in genitive followed by their object also in genitive, or when a set phrase (like, I think, lucht leanúna or dalta scoile as they are treated as a single phrase). See [t]he form of the genitive is not used when part here.

Also I’ve just found this post about a functional genitive in Lá Fhéile Pádraig. Unfortunately, as observed in the post, very few resources explain the functional genitive in double genitives properly…


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 Post subject: Re: Proofing for Website
PostPosted: Thu 17 Jan 2019 10:10 am 
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Joined: Thu 22 Dec 2011 6:28 am
Posts: 119
Location: Corcaigh
silmeth wrote:
Ade wrote:
Ar dtús, go raibh míle maith agat as do fhreagra.

I'm a bit confused about the difference between nouns in the genitive case following nouns in the genitive case, and successive nouns in genitive relation.

Why would all of the nouns not be in the genitive case and show their genitive form?


Irish – since at least Early Modern Irish and I think much earlier – avoids multiple genitives, and when such situation happens grammatically, only the last noun is put in true genitive form, while all the previous nouns are in lenited nominative – and such a lenited nominative is called a functional genitive, as it fulfills the role of a genitive, but doesn’t have a form of one. As often, there are exceptions, especially verbal nouns in genitive followed by their object also in genitive, or when a set phrase (like, I think, lucht leanúna or dalta scoile as they are treated as a single phrase). See [t]he form of the genitive is not used when part here.

Also I’ve just found this post about a functional genitive in Lá Fhéile Pádraig. Unfortunately, as observed in the post, very few resources explain the functional genitive in double genitives properly…


Clearly my modern Irish is deficient. :LOL:

Thanks very much for the detailed explanation.


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