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 Post subject: Are you from Ireland?
PostPosted: Wed 19 Sep 2018 7:31 am 
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How would you properly say this?
The context I'm imagining is that I already know that someone is of Irish descent, but I want to know if they were actually born there.

An bhfuil to o hÉireann?

Would be my guess, but I suspect I got either a declension, fada, or prothesis wrong in there somewehre.


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PostPosted: Wed 19 Sep 2018 9:18 am 
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You can say:
An as Éirinn thú?
or
An as Éirinn duit?

Maybe they can say the following in Munster (not sure):
An ó Éirinn thú?

Normally one doesn't use the verb "tá" to say that, and "ó" doesn't prefix h- to vowels, since it lenites consonants.

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PostPosted: Wed 19 Sep 2018 9:14 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Maybe they can say the following in Munster (not sure):
An ó Éirinn thú?


I've never heard this down my neck of the woods. That's not to say it definitely wouldn't be said, but I'd be more inclined towards either of the other two.


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PostPosted: Wed 19 Sep 2018 11:55 pm 
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Now I see in An Teanga Bheo: Corca Dhuibhne that they say "Ab ó Chorcaig iad?", so they must say "Ab ó Éirinn thú?".
But what is said in Corca Dhuibhne isn't always what is said in West Cork :)

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Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
:)


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep 2018 7:50 am 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Now I see in An Teanga Bheo: Corca Dhuibhne that they say "Ab ó Chorcaig iad?", so they must say "Ab ó Éirinn thú?".
But what is said in Corca Dhuibhne isn't always what is said in West Cork :)


Granted, but ab is a variant form of the copula, ba, not the interrogative particle. So this example is more like a statement which, in context, infers a question, "They were from Cork?". I certainly wouldn't infer from this that you could substitute an for ab.


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep 2018 8:55 am 
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Thanks all. Now I just need to find a hot red haired Irish lady to use this on.

:GRMA:


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep 2018 10:27 am 
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Ade wrote:
I certainly wouldn't infer from this that you could substitute an for ab.


In Connemara you can. In fact, they rarely use 'an' at all. Ar/ab is what's used in the present tense, though 'an mba' is used often in the past. It also looks to be that way in Corca Dhuibhne. From Diarmuid Ó Sé's Gailge Chorca Dhuibhne:

O Sé wrote:
ab roimh ghuta (uaireanta ib' roimh ghuta tosaigh), m.sh. əb i:asg mah e: ab iasc maith é? (10), əb e:n van'i f'r'ijail't' e: ab aon bhainnefriseáilte é? (1), əb e:n eb'r'ihi mah i:əd ab aon oibrithe maithe iad? (10), n'adərsə b er' ə m ír'i:g' i v'i: JI: n'fheadarsa ab ar an Muirigh a bhi si (6), n'adər ab o: hra: l'i: ə va:hir' nf’headr ab ó Thrá Li a mháthair? (1), n'adər ib' in'əlto:r' e: n f’headar ab innealtóir é? (1).


In fact, as you can see from the next to last example, 'n'fheadar ab ó Thrá Li a mháthair', 'ab' is used for 'an' before vowels, and 'ó' is used instead of 'as'.


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep 2018 2:34 pm 
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Ade wrote:
Lughaidh wrote:
Now I see in An Teanga Bheo: Corca Dhuibhne that they say "Ab ó Chorcaig iad?", so they must say "Ab ó Éirinn thú?".
But what is said in Corca Dhuibhne isn't always what is said in West Cork :)


Granted, but ab is a variant form of the copula, ba, not the interrogative particle. So this example is more like a statement which, in context, infers a question, "They were from Cork?". I certainly wouldn't infer from this that you could substitute an for ab.


I'd think it is perhaps a shortened form of original "Arb ó Éirinn thú."
In Corca Dhuibhne -r is often lost, so arb > ab.
And ar for an in present (!) tense copula questions is common in Conamara/Cois Fharraige, too. And even ab is found there before the pronouns é, í, and iad (prob. as well a shortened form of arb)


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Sep 2018 8:25 pm 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
Ade wrote:
I certainly wouldn't infer from this that you could substitute an for ab.


In Connemara you can. In fact, they rarely use 'an' at all. Ar/ab is what's used in the present tense, though 'an mba' is used often in the past. It also looks to be that way in Corca Dhuibhne. From Diarmuid Ó Sé's Gailge Chorca Dhuibhne:

O Sé wrote:
ab roimh ghuta (uaireanta ib' roimh ghuta tosaigh), m.sh. əb i:asg mah e: ab iasc maith é? (10), əb e:n van'i f'r'ijail't' e: ab aon bhainnefriseáilte é? (1), əb e:n eb'r'ihi mah i:əd ab aon oibrithe maithe iad? (10), n'adərsə b er' ə m ír'i:g' i v'i: JI: n'fheadarsa ab ar an Muirigh a bhi si (6), n'adər ab o: hra: l'i: ə va:hir' nf’headr ab ó Thrá Li a mháthair? (1), n'adər ib' in'əlto:r' e: n f’headar ab innealtóir é? (1).


In fact, as you can see from the next to last example, 'n'fheadar ab ó Thrá Li a mháthair', 'ab' is used for 'an' before vowels, and 'ó' is used instead of 'as'.


I should probably clarify that substitution doubt I suggested. I meant it the other way around; "ab ó" sounds fine to me, but I wouldn't take it to mean that "an ó" could be used in its place. "An ó" sounds jarring to me. That's not to say it's not said, or wrong, of course. Just that in my limited experience I haven't heard it used.


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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep 2018 12:26 pm 
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Vitaee wrote:
How would you properly say this?
The context I'm imagining is that I already know that someone is of Irish descent, but I want to know if they were actually born there.

An bhfuil to o hÉireann?

Would be my guess, but I suspect I got either a declension, fada, or prothesis wrong in there somewehre.


"An rugadh tú in Éirinn?"


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