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PostPosted: Mon 06 Aug 2018 8:51 pm 
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Hello all,

As the title says I am having trouble with the vowels in the title. Apologies for using IPA, but it makes discussion easier.

I think wiki says that Irish actually has only two of the above, with the exact realization depending on the surrounding consonants.

I am using TYI Irish and I can’t see a way to reliably predict what the vowel should be in words like ‘ceilim’ ‘deinim’ ‘gloine’ ‘scoil’ and even ‘cnoc’.

Any input/advice from native or mor advanced speakers would be welcome!

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon 06 Aug 2018 10:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 6:15 pm
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Location: An Astráil
davush wrote:
Hello all,

As the title says I am having trouble with the vowels in the title. Apologies for using IPA, but it makes discussion easier.

I think wiki says that Irish actually has only two of the above, with the exact realization depending on the surrounding consonants.

I am using TYI Irish and I can’t see a way to reliably predict what the vowel should be in words like ‘ceilim’ ‘deinim’ ‘gloine’ ‘scoil’ and even ‘cnoc’.

Any input/advice from native or mor advanced speakers would be welcome!

Thanks.

The realisation of any vowel in any language is always dependent upon the surrounding consonants. In fact, I was told years ago that it was shown in experiments that if the main parts of vowels and consonants were removed from a sound file an the joining pieces of the waves were played, a native speaker of a language can still work out what the original word is.

For the above examples, however, I would suggest:

If you have ei the e will dominate.

oi usually sounds like it is pronounced /ue/, except when the following consonant is s, because the s absorbs the i, to make /o∫/.

The appendices in Learning Irish by Mícheál Ó Siadhail have the best explanations. If you google around you should be able to find a searchable pdf of it online.

"Modern Irish" by Mícheál Ó Siadhail also describes the phonetics in detail, especially the relationships between spelling and the dialects.

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WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Tue 07 Aug 2018 10:54 am 
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Joined: Tue 16 May 2017 11:04 am
Posts: 10
Thanks - I was actually thinking of picking up a copy of Learning Irish.

Regarding the vowels: I meant consonants colour the vowel in Irish in particular due to the extensive palatalization/velarization throughout interacting with the vowel.

Should I just learn what <oi> represents on a case by case basis?

I.e. is <scoil> always /skˠɔlʲ/ or can it be /skˠɪlʲ/ or /skˠɛlʲ/ (or such)?

Similarly, is <cnoc> /knʊk/ or /knɔk/?

<cloiche> /klˠɛçə/ or /klˠɔçə/ or even /klˠɪçə/ ?

Hopefully Learning Irish will clear some of my confusion.

Many thanks.


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PostPosted: Tue 07 Aug 2018 11:32 am 
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davush wrote:
Thanks - I was actually thinking of picking up a copy of Learning Irish.

Definitely worth getting. The recordings are of native speakers.

davush wrote:
Should I just learn what <oi> represents on a case by case basis?

I.e. is <scoil> always /skˠɔlʲ/ or can it be /skˠɪlʲ/ or /skˠɛlʲ/ (or such)?

Similarly, is <cnoc> /knʊk/ or /knɔk/?

<cloiche> /klˠɛçə/ or /klˠɔçə/ or even /klˠɪçə/ ?

Hopefully Learning Irish will clear some of my confusion.

Many thanks.

Yes, pretty much case by case, although you'll not be totally wrong if you use any of those pronunciations, and you'll eventually assemble enough examples to work out new words.

scoil/skel´/ =/skˠɛlʲ/
cnoc /kruk/ = /krʊk/
cloiche = /kLo:i:/ or /kLox´ə/ = /klˠɔçə/

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Wed 22 Aug 2018 7:20 pm 
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Location: Baile Mhic Ghoilla Eoin, VA
Breandán wrote:
In fact, I was told years ago that it was shown in experiments that if the main parts of vowels and consonants were removed from a sound file an the joining pieces of the waves were played, a native speaker of a language can still work out what the original word is.

Wow.... that is fascinating! I am so glad you mentioned that.

Breandán wrote:
Definitely worth getting. The recordings are of native speakers.

Mícheál Ó Siadhail is great! And I also very highly recommend (sorry if I've said this before, I am a bit of a broken record) checking out Bríd Mhór's recordings on forvo.com . Bríd is absolutely amazing and she is very active on forvo. When she is around sometimes she will even take requests. Her recordings are brilliant.

Beware though that on forvo there are many different speakers with different regional accents and some which are not native speakers at all. So if consistency is important for you, always look for the name Bríd Mhór -- then you know its a brand you can trust! ;)

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