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PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2018 7:52 am 
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Dia Daoibh

I'm aware that there are 11 irregular Irish verbs, however I've noticed on many occasions that there are other verbs that don't really follow the standard rules either.

Mar shampla;
To forget : Déan dearmad
To cancel : Cuir ar ceal
To die : Bás a fháil

If I want to say "I forgot", I need to say "Rinne mé dearmad". Why do I need the verb "Rinne" here? Could I not just say
"Dhearmad mé"?
I cancelled=Cheal mé (?)
She died= Bhás sí (?)

Are there rules for when we should use these double verbs? If so, how do I know when to use them?

Go raibh maith agaibh,
Turlough


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PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2018 8:40 am 
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Those are not double verbs. Those are single verbs with an object or a prepositional phrase.

bás a fháil literally means ‘to get death’, bás ‘death’ is a noun serving as an object of the verb ‘to get’.
dearmad a dhéanamh means ‘to make a forgetting’ (and what you wrote, déan dearmad is imperative: ‘forget!’, ‘make forgetting’), the noun dearmad ‘mistake, forgetting’ is an object. By the way, there also is a transitive verb dearmad, and Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla even gives an example Dhearmad sé na pinginí, ‘he overlooked, omitted, the pence’.

If you conjugate (put in a given grammatical tense or person) a verb, you only conjugate the verb (not its object), hence rinne mé dearmad, as rinne is the past tense indicative form of déan. The same wih fuair sí bás, lit ‘she died, she got death’ – the only verb there is fuair ‘got’, which is a past tense of faigh ‘get’. You cannot say something like ‘*she deathed’ in English, because ‘death’ is not a verb, and the same way you cannot say *bhás sí in Irish.

As for cuir rud éigin ar ceal, it is a phrase, literally meaning ‘put something on concealment’, and less literally ‘cancel, abolish something’. Like in English you can ‘put up with sb’ and you cannot say eg. ‘*I was upping-withing him’ for ‘I was putting up with him' – you conjugate the verb part of the phrase. Or ‘write something down’ – you don’t ‘*down’ it, ‘down’ here is only an adverb, the only verb there is ‘write’.

EDIT: I wrote there is no verb ‘to die’ in Irish, but edited it now, as Labhrás pointed out, básaigh exists, which without object means ‘to die’ and with an object ‘to kill’. Also, it is pretty common in Irish for nouns to have a corresponding verb ending in -(a)igh.


Last edited by silmeth on Fri 03 Aug 2018 9:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2018 8:48 am 
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terrygargan85 wrote:
Dia Daoibh

I'm aware that there are 11 irregular Irish verbs, however I've noticed on many occasions that there are other verbs that don't really follow the standard rules either.

Mar shampla;
To forget : Déan dearmad
To cancel : Cuir ar ceal
To die : Bás a fháil

If I want to say "I forgot", I need to say "Rinne mé dearmad". Why do I need the verb "Rinne" here? Could I not just say
"Dhearmad mé"?
I cancelled=Cheal mé (?)
She died= Bhás sí (?)

Are there rules for when we should use these double verbs? If so, how do I know when to use them?

Go raibh maith agaibh,
Turlough


Dearmad, ceal, bás are nouns here, not verbs. (fogetfulness, lack, death)
Irish is fond of nouns.

Dearmad can be a verb, too.
Thus you can say: Dhearmad mé é. But it is more common to say: Rinne mé dearmad de.

Ceal can't be a verb. But there's cealaigh
So you can say: Chealaigh mé = I cancelled. But it is more common ... etc.

Bás can't be a verb. But there's básaigh
So you can say: Bhásaigh mé = I died. But it is more common ... etc.
And there's éag: D'éag mé. = I died.


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PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2018 9:05 am 
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Okay, got it, I should treat these verbs as nouns. They are not "double verbs", just a verb and noun phrase.

Next question is, how do I know when to use this Verb+Noun combination. Is it just a case of checking the dictionary every time I learn a new verb?

I'm trying to learn a lot of new verbs at the moment. The problem is, I don't know if I should use this Verb+Noun combination, or just conjugate the verb regulary...


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PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2018 1:09 pm 
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Just conjugate the verb and use the noun as an object:
faigh bás -> fuair sé bás (he died, ie. he got death), gheobhaidh siad bás (they'll die, ie. they'll get death)

etc

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Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
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PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2018 1:19 pm 
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terrygargan85 wrote:
Okay, got it, I should treat these verbs as nouns. They are not "double verbs", just a verb and noun phrase.

Next question is, how do I know when to use this Verb+Noun combination. Is it just a case of checking the dictionary every time I learn a new verb?

I'm trying to learn a lot of new verbs at the moment. The problem is, I don't know if I should use this Verb+Noun combination, or just conjugate the verb regulary...

It is better to learn vocabulary from Irish sentences, then find out what they mean in English, OR work out their meanings by accumulating examples through experience as native speakers do in any language. Trying to translate English into Irish will only result in your learning a whole lot of Béarlachas, like Franglais versus French.

One good example is "kiss me". If you translate it directly into Irish you may end up with Póg mé - but that means "fuck off; kiss my arse". To ask for a kiss in Irish you need to say Tabhair 'om póg" ('om = dhom/dom/domh) "Give me a kiss".

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WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2018 4:16 pm 
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In French, Franglais is just French with a lot of English loanwords (or fake English-looking words). Most of those who use Franglais don't really speak English, that's why it's about words and not syntax of idioms.
So it's not comparable with Urban Irish, for instance, which is really English translated word for word and with English sounds instead of the Irish ones, but Irish words.

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Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
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PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2018 8:57 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
In French, Franglais is just French with a lot of English loanwords (or fake English-looking words). Most of those who use Franglais don't really speak English, that's why it's about words and not syntax of idioms.
So it's not comparable with Urban Irish, for instance, which is really English translated word for word and with English sounds instead of the Irish ones, but Irish words.

Either way, it is not something you would intentionally want to learn, and I think most people would be pissed off if they went to learn French and found out later that they had been taught that instead.

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WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Tue 07 Aug 2018 5:54 am 
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Thanks very much guys, I appreciate all the feedback :-)


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PostPosted: Wed 22 Aug 2018 7:13 pm 
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terrygargan85 wrote:
Next question is, how do I know when to use this Verb+Noun combination. Is it just a case of checking the dictionary every time I learn a new verb?


If it helps you to recognize them, when used with 'verbal nouns' (somewhat similar to what we call the infinitive in English), the direct object will come first, then the word a, then the lenited verbal noun. So in your examples, the verbal noun is the last word in the three verb phrases (not sure if verb phrase is the right term)

Here is a random long example
an geansaí a fuair mé ó mo sheanmháthair fiche bliain ó shin a chaitheamh
(to wear the sweater that I got from my grandmother twenty years ago)
Even though the direct object is long, you can find the verb easily by just looking to the end until you see the word a and then the verbal noun.

I hope that is helpful!

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