It is currently Wed 12 Dec 2018 10:35 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Rolled R
PostPosted: Sat 28 Jul 2018 6:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm
Posts: 2688
Sionnach wrote:
Bríd Mhór wrote:
Sionnach wrote:
Forgive me if I'm butchering it, but I would like to make an attempt at pronouncing your name. Would it sound like "Bleedsh" or something close?


You can hear it here:

That's me, Bríd Eilís

https://forvo.com/word/br%C3%ADd/#ga


Oh that's pretty close to what I had in mind 8O
Also I must thank you for your contribution to Forvo, I've been listening to a lot of your inputs on that website :mrgreen:

You're very welcome. And thank you for commenting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rolled R
PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug 2018 4:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun 12 Nov 2017 2:55 pm
Posts: 61
Breandán wrote:
Younger Gaeltacht speakers are mimicking the school Irish anglicized accent (so as not to be ridiculed by their non-native peers) and bringing it into the home with them.

If you are clearly a native speaker, then what difference would using English r make? Aren’t native speakers all Irish-language snobs anyway (or so I’ve heard)?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rolled R
PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2018 12:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 6:15 pm
Posts: 3500
Location: An Astráil
Esszet wrote:
Breandán wrote:
Younger Gaeltacht speakers are mimicking the school Irish anglicized accent (so as not to be ridiculed by their non-native peers) and bringing it into the home with them.

If you are clearly a native speaker, then what difference would using English r make? Aren’t native speakers all Irish-language snobs anyway (or so I’ve heard)?

English r doesn't belong in Irish traditionally. Irish r is a flap.

Native speakers don't use the English r except where the non-native school Irish has (inadvertantly) taught children that their parents pronunciation is wrong.

I don't know where you got the idea that Gaeltacht speakers are snobs, but you were grossly misinformed. They are just trying to preserve traditional Irish against a tide of anglicization.

That tide could have been a helpful force in the preservation of Irish if the first (non-native) teachers in the school system had been properly instructed in the pronunciation of the language at the beginning. Unfortunately they were not.

Instead the school system has been a generator of a non-native pseudo-Irish, previously called "school Irish" and nowadays often referred to as Urban Irish. This is the Irish equivalent of Franglais.

In English, there are more non-native speakers than native speakers, but only native speakers are considered when evaluating what English is "correct". Depending on the context, slang or colloquial English may be considered. Pidgin English doesn't factor into it.

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rolled R
PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2018 1:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun 12 Nov 2017 2:55 pm
Posts: 61
I meant that sarcastically, what I’ve heard is that native speakers are preceived as snobs precisely because they speak Irish properly, and I was wondering what difference using English r would make if you’re trying to avoid ridicule (as you said) when you’re clearly a native speaker anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rolled R
PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2018 11:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 6:15 pm
Posts: 3500
Location: An Astráil
Esszet wrote:
I meant that sarcastically, what I’ve heard is that native speakers are preceived as snobs precisely because they speak Irish properly, and I was wondering what difference using English r would make if you’re trying to avoid ridicule (as you said) when you’re clearly a native speaker anyway.

Ah, that is peer pressure at school. If the rest of your classmates, your teachers and teaching materials all use anglicised Irish, it is easier for kids just to go along with the way other people speak than to be the odd one out.

I am pretty sure if an Australian, American, or Irish family were living in India and going to an Indian school where they spoke English with an Indian accent, it wouldn't be long before the kids came home with Indian accents to their English. Even if they switched to unaccented English at home, it is highly likely they would use whatever form their friends used outside the house and they might even come to identify with it more than their parents accents.

I've seen a case here in Australia where native Japanese parents spoke only Japanese at home, but the girls eventually adopted English as their identity language, and as a result their Japanese was heavily accented even though their parents were native speakers of Japanese.

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rolled R
PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2018 1:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun 12 Nov 2017 2:55 pm
Posts: 61
Oh, well that’s a shame in this case. Does that even apply in Gaelscoileanna? I’d have to think if there was anywhere people were really going to learn Irish, it would be there.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rolled R
PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2018 9:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 6:15 pm
Posts: 3500
Location: An Astráil
Esszet wrote:
Oh, well that’s a shame in this case. Does that even apply in Gaelscoileanna? I’d have to think if there was anywhere people were really going to learn Irish, it would be there.

Yes, even in Gaelscoileannaí. Try listening to the TG Lurgan videos, for instance. Such great production - but the accents? :rolleyes:

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rolled R
PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2018 11:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm
Posts: 2688
Breandán wrote:
Esszet wrote:
Breandán wrote:
Younger Gaeltacht speakers are mimicking the school Irish anglicized accent (so as not to be ridiculed by their non-native peers) and bringing it into the home with them.

If you are clearly a native speaker, then what difference would using English r make? Aren’t native speakers all Irish-language snobs anyway (or so I’ve heard)?

English r doesn't belong in Irish traditionally. Irish r is a flap.

Native speakers don't use the English r except where the non-native school Irish has (inadvertantly) taught children that their parents pronunciation is wrong.

I don't know where you got the idea that Gaeltacht speakers are snobs, but you were grossly misinformed. They are just trying to preserve traditional Irish against a tide of anglicization.

That tide could have been a helpful force in the preservation of Irish if the first (non-native) teachers in the school system had been properly instructed in the pronunciation of the language at the beginning. Unfortunately they were not.

Instead the school system has been a generator of a non-native pseudo-Irish, previously called "school Irish" and nowadays often referred to as Urban Irish. This is the Irish equivalent of Franglais.

In English, there are more non-native speakers than native speakers, but only native speakers are considered when evaluating what English is "correct". Depending on the context, slang or colloquial English may be considered. Pidgin English doesn't factor into it.


I totally agree Breandán. :good:

Peer pressure is savage, even for the very young.

I have a little cousin, she's seven, she's fluent in Irish and English, able to switch instantly from one to the other. So far she has the correct blas, she's a confident little girl so hopefully will be the one leading her peers. When I was that age I hardly had two words of English. My first experience of English in school was when a Traveller girl attended, I couldn't understand a word she said. Things have changed a lot since those days (60s and 70s).

Don't talk to me about gaelscoileanna :bash:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rolled R
PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2018 9:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun 12 Nov 2017 2:55 pm
Posts: 61
I don’t even like listening to pop in English, so I found something else, and I’m pretty sure I heard the guy say beirt like “birch” at one point. Wow... I don’t know if you guys are aware of this, but “brogue” originally referred to an English accent used when speaking Irish (possibly derived from barróg, not bróg, obviously), and as more and more people started speaking English, it came to mean an Irish accent used when speaking English. Now, however, it seems we’re onto brogue Mk. III: a Hiberno-English accent used when speaking Irish. Pretty soon it’s gonna be a slight Polish accent used when speaking Irish or something...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rolled R
PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2018 11:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm
Posts: 2313
Quote:
I don’t even like listening to pop in English, so I found something else, and I’m pretty sure I heard the guy say beirt like “birch” at one point. Wow... I don’t know if you guys are aware of this, but “brogue” originally referred to an English accent used when speaking Irish (possibly derived from barróg, not bróg, obviously), and as more and more people started speaking English, it came to mean an Irish accent used when speaking English. Now, however, it seems we’re onto brogue Mk. III: a Hiberno-English accent used when speaking Irish. Pretty soon it’s gonna be a slight Polish accent used when speaking Irish or something...


actually, Polish shares more sounds with Irish, than English does. Polish has a broad and slender consonants too, and the "r's" are more similar to those of Gaeltacht Irish :)

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
:)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], EAMONeamon, Google [Bot], silmeth and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group