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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Tue 26 Jun 2018 10:04 am 
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Go rabh maith agad a Labhráis.
Ba cheart é a chuartughadh le "caidé mar" fosta, i n-áit "cionnus/conas", agus le "cén chaoi"...

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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Tue 26 Jun 2018 12:54 pm 
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Quote:
I think it should be: Tá uaim an bodhrán a sheinm ; Tá uaim bodhránaíocht (?) a fhoghlaim.


What does "bodhránaíocht" mean? Couldn't find it in Teanglann.


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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Tue 26 Jun 2018 1:48 pm 
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Vitaee wrote:
Quote:
I think it should be: Tá uaim an bodhrán a sheinm ; Tá uaim bodhránaíocht (?) a fhoghlaim.


What does "bodhránaíocht" mean? Couldn't find it in Teanglann.

bodhránaí "a bodhrán player"
bodhránaíocht "what a bodhrán player does", i.e., "bodhrán playing"

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WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Tue 26 Jun 2018 2:25 pm 
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Vitaee wrote:
Quote:
I think it should be: Tá uaim an bodhrán a sheinm ; Tá uaim bodhránaíocht (?) a fhoghlaim.


What does "bodhránaíocht" mean? Couldn't find it in Teanglann.


As in English, you can coin new words in Irish by adding suffixes
So, any word in -aí or -óir could add the ending -acht. "what a -aí / -óir does".
The result is a verbal noun: bodhránaíocht = "acting like a bodhrán player" -> "playing the bodhrán".
So you could say: Tá mé ag bodhránaíocht. = I am playing the bodhrán.

Perhaps you know the word siopadóireacht derived from siopadóir, but with a changed meaning: shopping.

The only problem is:
bodhránaíocht is really a new coined word, not yet used by native speakers, at least not in written language or not documented in online sources. There's no example at all in Corpas Nua na hÉireann (https://focloir.sketchengine.co.uk/run.cgi/index), not a single one.
There are only 5 (five) Google search results.
So, I wouldn't use it.


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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Tue 26 Jun 2018 8:31 pm 
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I think it's possible to create such nouns from musical instruments quite easily since there's already a number of them: fidiléireacht, cláirseoireacht, píobaireacht...

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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Tue 26 Jun 2018 11:47 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
I think it's possible to create such nouns from musical instruments quite easily since there's already a number of them: fidiléireacht, cláirseoireacht, píobaireacht...

I agree. Some words are formed quite naturally, their meaning is obvious and they don't sound like Béarlachas. (However, I did feel betrayed by siopadóireacht at first.)

Labhrás wrote:
Vitaee wrote:
Quote:
I think it should be: Tá uaim an bodhrán a sheinm ; Tá uaim bodhránaíocht (?) a fhoghlaim.


What does "bodhránaíocht" mean? Couldn't find it in Teanglann.


As in English, you can coin new words in Irish by adding suffixes
So, any word in -aí or -óir could add the ending -acht. "what a -aí / -óir does".
The result is a verbal noun: bodhránaíocht = "acting like a bodhrán player" -> "playing the bodhrán".
So you could say: Tá mé ag bodhránaíocht. = I am playing the bodhrán.

Perhaps you know the word siopadóireacht derived from siopadóir, but with a changed meaning: shopping.

The only problem is:
bodhránaíocht is really a new coined word, not yet used by native speakers, at least not in written language or not documented in online sources. There's no example at all in Corpas Nua na hÉireann (https://focloir.sketchengine.co.uk/run.cgi/index), not a single one.
There are only 5 (five) Google search results.
So, I wouldn't use it.

What does the Corpas say about bodhránacht? I think it is used only in bodhránacht an lae "daybreak" nowadays. I heard it came from the military drumming used to wake soldiers at daybreak, but perhaps that is only a folk etymology?

Bodhrán itself is interesting. Dinneen only has it listed as meaning "a deaf person". In that case it is bodhar "deaf" + -án (diminutive suffix). When did it come to mean a drum? (Dinneen does list tiompánacht "playing a timbrel") What is the earliest listing in the Corpas for "bodhrán" as a "winnowing drum" (as Ó Dónaill has it glossed)?

My pet (joke) theory for the derivation of bodhrán in the meaning of "drum" is:

bodhair "to deafen, bother" + -án "-er" (agent or instrument suffix).

That is to say "a deafener, a botherer". :darklaugh:

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Wed 27 Jun 2018 2:21 am 
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Quote:
My pet (joke) theory for the derivation of bodhrán in the meaning of "drum" is:

bodhair "to deafen, bother" + -án "-er" (agent or instrument suffix).

That is to say "a deafener, a botherer". :darklaugh:


I'm sure my family will feel the same way as I start my bohrán lessons tomorrow :LOL:

I get the feeling I'm not going to get a consensus answer to my original question, which is fine.
It's Irish after all. It's par for the course.

But to summarize the possible options here for how to say "I want to learn to play the Bodhrán"
(although some don't mean literally the same thing):

Tá uaim a fhoghlaim an bodhrán a sheinm.
(The first "a" is optional which I assume means that "foghlaim" would no longer be lenited)

Tá uaim a fhoghlaim conas an bodhrán a sheinm
(Problem here is this smells like Bearchlas)

Tá uaim an bodhránaíocht a fhoghlaim
(Issue here is that "bodhránaíocht" is a constructed somewhat artificial word which may or may not be deemed "proper" depending on who you ask)

So, is my summary correct?

PS
Isn't Irish such a FUN language?


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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Wed 27 Jun 2018 4:19 pm 
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Couldn't we do something like

Tá mé ag iarraidh seinm an bhodhráin a fhoghlaim to convey the same meaning (I want to learn the playing of the bodhrán), using the verbal noun as, well, a true noun?


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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Wed 27 Jun 2018 9:40 pm 
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Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 917
Vitaee wrote:
Quote:
My pet (joke) theory for the derivation of bodhrán in the meaning of "drum" is:

bodhair "to deafen, bother" + -án "-er" (agent or instrument suffix).

That is to say "a deafener, a botherer". :darklaugh:


I'm sure my family will feel the same way as I start my bohrán lessons tomorrow :LOL:

I get the feeling I'm not going to get a consensus answer to my original question, which is fine.
It's Irish after all. It's par for the course.

But to summarize the possible options here for how to say "I want to learn to play the Bodhrán"
(although some don't mean literally the same thing):

Tá uaim a fhoghlaim an bodhrán a sheinm.
(The first "a" is optional which I assume means that "foghlaim" would no longer be lenited)

Tá uaim a fhoghlaim conas an bodhrán a sheinm
(Problem here is this smells like Bearchlas)

Tá uaim an bodhránaíocht a fhoghlaim
(Issue here is that "bodhránaíocht" is a constructed somewhat artificial word which may or may not be deemed "proper" depending on who you ask)

So, is my summary correct?

PS
Isn't Irish such a FUN language?


Yes. :)
(Though I don't consider bodhránaíocht artificial at all. It is well-formed and sothuigthe. I just wonder why it hasn't been used by Irish speakers.
Ar a laghad, it is more common than "triantánaíocht", though an triantán is the only instrument I could play. ;) )

How about another version without any problems (b’fhéidir):

... a fhoghlaim conas a sheinntear an bodhrán.

galaxyrocker wrote:
Couldn't we do something like

Tá mé ag iarraidh seinm an bhodhráin a fhoghlaim to convey the same meaning (I want to learn the playing of the bodhrán), using the verbal noun as, well, a true noun?


I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Mon 23 Jul 2018 6:13 am 
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Lughaidh wrote:
to me using "conas" + object + verbal noun looks like a Béarlachas, even though it can be found in focloir.ie...


Ha! I am sorry to disillusion you, but focloir.ie is rife with Béarlachas. If you want to avoid Béarlachas, you would be safer to stick with Ó Dónaill.

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