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 Post subject: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun 2018 6:07 am 
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OK,

I believe "I want to play the bodhrán == Tá uaim a sheinm an bodhrán"

and that "I want to learn the bodhrán == Tá uaim a fhoghlaim an bodhrán"

but I'm not sure about "I want to learn to play the bodhrán == ??"

My guess would be "Tá uaim a fhoghlaim a sheinm an bodhrán"

but that just seems weird to me. Any corrections or suggestion??


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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun 2018 9:43 am 
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Quote:
I believe "I want to play the bodhrán == Tá uaim a sheinm an bodhrán"

and that "I want to learn the bodhrán == Tá uaim a fhoghlaim an bodhrán"


I think it should be: Tá uaim an bodhrán a sheinm ; Tá uaim bodhránaíocht (?) a fhoghlaim.

Quote:
but I'm not sure about "I want to learn to play the bodhrán == ??"

My guess would be "Tá uaim a fhoghlaim a sheinm an bodhrán"

but that just seems weird to me. Any corrections or suggestion??


indeed it doesn't sound right. The answer is not simple!
focloir.ie gives:

she learned how to play the fiddle d'fhoghlaim sí conas an fhidil a sheinm, d'fhoghlaim sí an dóigh leis an bhfidil a bhualadh, d'fhoghlaim sí an fhidil

so with "tá uaim", would we need to put "foghlaim" at the end? it would sound weird too:

Tá uaim an dóigh leis an bhfidil a sheinm a fhoghlaim...

I guess in this context one could avoid the problem by using a word like "fidileoireacht" and "bodhránaíocht" but in other contexts, one couldn't avoid the 2 infinitives and then I don't know how one should say (eg: I want to learn how to cut the grass...).
It might be a question to ask to the Facebook group Gaeilge Amháin... someone might know.

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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun 2018 11:34 am 
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Vitaee wrote:
OK,

I believe "I want to play the bodhrán == Tá uaim a sheinm an bodhrán"

and that "I want to learn the bodhrán == Tá uaim a fhoghlaim an bodhrán"

... an bodhrán a sheinm = to play the bodhrán
the object is always first in "infinitives": rud a dhéanamh = to do a thing

Vitaee wrote:
but I'm not sure about "I want to learn to play the bodhrán == ??"

My guess would be "Tá uaim a fhoghlaim a sheinm an bodhrán"

A "double infinitive" would be:

... foghlaim an bodhrán a sheinm = to learn to play the bodhrán
or
... a fhoghlaim an bodhrán a sheinm = to learn to play the bodhrán

Here, the first verbal noun (foghlaim) can be introduced by "a" (a fhoghlaim, "its learning") referring to the second (an bodhrán a sheinm).
But this "a" is very often left out.

Lughaidh wrote:
but in other contexts, one couldn't avoid the 2 infinitives and then I don't know how one should say (eg: I want to learn how to cut the grass...).

... foghlaim an féar a bhaint = to learn to cut the grass
or
... a fhoghlaim an féar a bhaint = to learn to cut the grass


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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun 2018 11:49 am 
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Learning Irish says:
Quote:
The particle a /ə/, which causes lenition, is used before verbs when they are followed by a sentence, or subordinate clause, which is syntactically complete in itself, e.g. cé a bhí ann aréir ? 'Who was there last night?'; go bhfuil Bríd tinn 'that Brid is sick


It has a few examples with the following pattern:

Bhi Cáit ag iarraidh ...

a fháil amach
a dhéanamh amach
a shamhlú
a fhiafraí
a thiscint

... cé a bhi ann aréir.


I think you can move the bare infinitive forward if you have a question or an interrogative pronoun or adverb like conas or cé in the second half of the sentence.

Tá mé ag iarraidh a fháil amach an chaoi/cén chaoi an bodhrán a sheinm.

=> Tá uaim a fhoghlaim conas an bodhrán a sheinm.

Tá mé ag iarraidh a fháil amach an chaoi/cén chaoi an féar a bhaint.

=> Tá uaim a fhoghlaim conas an féar a bhaint.

(I think this just crossed with Labhrás' answer?)

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WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun 2018 12:14 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
Bhi Cáit ag iarraidh ...

a fháil amach
a dhéanamh amach
a shamhlú
a fhiafraí
a thiscint

... cé a bhi ann aréir.


Yes, in case of a following finite clause (as ... cé a bhí ann aréir or ... go bhfuil sí tinn) the particle "a" is used more often than in those cases another verbal noun follows ("double infinitives"). But even here it is sometimes left out (esp. in Ulster Irish)
(this "a" is a possessive adjective ("his, its") and different from the normal verbal noun particle a [< do, "to"]).

Graiméar Gaeilge na mB. Criostaí recommends (with its very few words about this constructions) always to use "a".
Foclóir Gaeilge Béarla leaves "a" out in its examples of double infinitives (e.g. moladh do dhuine rud a dhéanamh = to advise s.o. to do sth.)


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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun 2018 12:25 pm 
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So, would this work

Tá uaim a fhoghlaim conas an bodhrán a sheinm

BTW, how do you pronounce "sheinm"? Would it be "hey-num"?


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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun 2018 12:39 pm 
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Vitaee wrote:
So, would this work

Tá uaim a fhoghlaim conas an bodhrán a sheinm

BTW, how do you pronounce "sheinm"? Would it be "hey-num"?

sheinm
HEN-im
/hen´əm´/

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun 2018 6:19 pm 
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Quote:
Tá uaim a fhoghlaim conas an bodhrán a sheinm


to me using "conas" + object + verbal noun looks like a Béarlachas, even though it can be found in focloir.ie... I wonder if it can be found in the Gaeltacht literature of the beginning of the 20th century and before (ie. when authors were not influenced by English)...

Can't find it at all in Tobar na Gaedhilge, but I find "caidé mar a"+conjugated verb and "caidé 'n dóigh a"+conjugated verb and "caidé 'n dóigh le"+verbal noun.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Mon 25 Jun 2018 10:14 pm 
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Posts: 874
Lughaidh wrote:
to me using "conas" + object + verbal noun looks like a Béarlachas, even though it can be found in focloir.ie... I wonder if it can be found in the Gaeltacht literature of the beginning of the 20th century and before (ie. when authors were not influenced by English)...

Examples for conas + verbal noun in http://corpas.ria.ie (Corpas Stairiúil na Gaeilge 1600 - 1926)

There are no examples from 17th and 18th century. At least I didn't find one.

The first one I could identify is from 1818:

Seanmóirí Mhuighe Nuadhad I, 1818:
Cionnas slighe an Tighearna d'Ullmhughadh.

There are only a few other examples in 19th century:
Machtnuig go Maih air, Padruig Din, 1819:
chun a fhoghlaim cionnas bás maith d'fhaghail.
Céad de Cheoltaibh Uladh, Ó Muirgheasa, Énrí, 1824:
Cionnus d'fheidhm bheith id' bhladharnach id' aon faoi ghruaim
Druileáil mhíleata faoi conas píce a láimhseáil, 1887:
Druileáil mhíleata faoi conas píce a láimhseáil.

At the turn of the century it apparently became more common.
Authors of An Claidheamh Soluis used it quite often, and esp. Peadar Ua Laoghaire did so as well:

Cúrsaidhe an tSaoghail - Éire, Feargus Finn-bhéil, An Claidheamh Soluis, 1899:
Thuig sé cionnus aondacht agus cáirdeachas a sheoladh
Cúrsaidhe an tSaoghail - Paróisteachas, 1900:
cionnus clú na paróiste d'árdach; cionnus na buachaillí óga agus na cailíní óga do choimeád ag baile
An Ghaedhilg i gCondae Roscomáin, Donnchadh Ua Laoghaire, 1901,
Tá an Ghaedhilg cheana aca, acht iad do mhúineadh cionnus í léigheadh agus do sgríobhadh.
Obair an tSamhraidh, An Claidheamh Soluis, 1901:
cionnus an aimsir do chaitheamh i leas na Gaedhilge i rith an tSamhraidh.
Sgéalta Thairis, Cú Uladh, An Claidheamh Soluis, 1901:
cionnus ar dtír do leigheas agus ar dteanga do leathnughadh.
Cionnus iad do ghlacadh mar is cóir
Mion-Chaint Cuid II, Peadar Ua Laoghaire, 1902
ní fheadair an duine seo conus í dhíol.
Do Ghnó Féin, An Claidheamh Soluis, 1903:
cionnus an gnó a dhéanamh 'n-a cheart, cionnus rudaí a chur ar bun, cionnus rudaí a choimeád ar siubhal.
An Coiste Úd, An Claidheamh Soluis, 1904:
cionnus earraidhe a dhéanamh suas go taidhbhseach fáiscithe.
An Sean-Léigheann, An Claidheamh Soluis, 1904:
cionnus scéal d'innsint, cionnus amhrán a rádh, cionnus sean-dán d'aithris
An tAos Óg ar dTúis, An Claidheamh Soluis, 1904:
cionnus a ngustal a chur chun leasa a dtíre duthchais.
Peadar Ua Laoghaire, Séadna, 1904
Ba mhaith liom an cleamhnas a dhéanamh ach ná feadar conus cur chuige.
Peadar Ua Laoghaire, Sgothbhualadh, 1904:
CONAS AN OBAIR A DHÉANAMH; conus Gaeluinn do léighe agus do sgrí'?; conus an Ghaeluinn do léighe do dhuine a bhí 'na chainteóir Gaeluinne
conus múine dhéanamh; conus snáthín a chur i snáthid; conus troid a dhéanamh le h-arm áirighthe, etc.
Leabharlann Cheart, An Claidheamh Soluis, 1905:
cionnus 'fhiachaibh a chur ar a gcoistíbh áiteamhla an obair seo a dhéanamh.
Toradh na Gaeilge ar Aitheasc agus ar Ghréithribh na nGaedheal, Ó Briain, Liam, Aistritheoir: Ó Murchadha, Tadhg, 1905:
cionnus cúrsa na teangan do stiúrughadh
Bean Léigheannta nó Deagh-Chócaire nó Togha agus Rogha agus Togha Eile, Síle Bueren Hahn, aistrítheoir: Máire Nic Shíthigh, An Claidheamh Soluis, 1907
cionnus dinnéar d'ullmhughadh
Measgán Músgraidhe - Cnuasach Beag Sgéalaidheachta, Seosamh Laoide, 1907
bhí fios aca cionnus an chaint do chur i ndiaidh a chéile
Ar Faithche na hImeartha - An tAos Óg, Ó Donnchadha, Tadhg, 1908
cionnus an báire d'imirt.
Cnuasacht Trágha, 1908
cionnas an bheóir do dheunamh.
An Dá Theangaidh, Ní Fhaircheallaigh, Úna, An Claidheamh Soluis, 1909
ní thuigid cionnus í do mhúnadh i gceart.
Eadhmon De Búrc,Ní Chonaill, Máire, 1909
agus ní raibh a fhios aige cionnas é féin a neartúghadh chuige
Seanmóin agus Trí Fichid I, Peadar Ua Laoghaire, 1909
ná feadair conus a bhéal a dh'éisteacht
Niamh, Ó Laoghaire, Peadar, 1910
conus duine chur chun báis le nimh
Árthach an Óir, Sheehan, M. Rev., 1911
cionnus im do dheunamh
...
Peadar Ua Laoghaire, Na Cheithre Soisgéil as an Tiomna Nua, 1915:
conas guidhe chun Dé.
Liam Ó Rinn, Saothar Fear nDomhain, 1917
agus conas é dheunamh.; conas filleadh ar an seana-tslighe;


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 Post subject: Re: Double infinitive??
PostPosted: Tue 26 Jun 2018 2:20 am 
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I much preferred your alternative suggestion of bodhránaíocht a fhoghlaim, etc., a Labhráis. :yes:

It was only because we were trying to explore the "double infinitive" itself that I persisted with the other expressions.

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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