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 Post subject: Re: Forms of the Article
PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr 2018 5:06 pm 
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silmeth wrote:
GnaG also describes both ways:

Yes, I checked there actually to see what it would say. It is what made me realize that of course we always use that system with time and measurement words

I am interested to hear more. As always :P So if you do get a chance to look at the book, please do.

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 Post subject: Re: Forms of the Article
PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr 2018 9:11 pm 
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I just checked, for the cardinal numbers it doesn’t actually say anything more than what I described. Translated to English it goes something like this:

An Ghaeilge, pp. 181–183 wrote:
Gramadach


23.1 Cardinal numbers 1–20
We are going to start overviewing some issues related to Irish numerals with listing of the numerals from 1 to 11 with nouns beginning with a consonant (capall) and with a vowel (ubh):

1. (aon) chapall amháin; (aon) ubh amháin
2. dhá chapall; dhá ubh
3. trí capaill; trí huibhe
4. ceithre capaill; ceithre huibhe
5. cúig capaill; cúig huibhe
6. sé capaill; sé huibhe
7. seacht gcapaill; seacht n-uibhe
8. ocht gcapaill; ocht n-uibhe
9. naoi gcapaill; naoi n-uibhe
10. deich gcapaill; deich n-uibhe
11. aon chapall déag; aon ubh déag
20. fiche capall; fiche ubh


We make constructions for 12 to 19 by adding déag to appropriate 1–9 forms […]

Let us notice consonant mutations: aon and dhá cause the lenition of a noun following them, and numerals from 7 to 10 cause the eclipsis […] Déag undergoes lenition after a word ending with a vowel, eg. trí huibhe dhéag […]

In constructions including numerals a special role is played by the indefinite pronoun ceann, cinn [… here goes a paragraph describing its usage]

Another construction of a numeral with a noun exists, that is a connection of a numeral, a word cinn with a preposition deᴸ and a noun. This way, alongside the construction Tá trí ba dhéag agamI have 13 cows, there exists also Tá trí cinn déag de bha agam [… more examples]

Numerals 1, 2 and 20 are accompanied by singular form of a noun, eg.: aon bhliain amháin, dhá seachtain, fiche bó. Several nouns have special forms of the plural when put together with numerals, when the plural is needed (3–10). Also initial mutations are a little irregular.

Singular — Plural with a numeral

bliain3–6 bliana, 7–10 mbliana
[m’i] a month3–6 mhí, 7–10 mí
míle [m’ili] a mile, a thousand3–6 mhíle, 7–10 míle
pingin3–6 pingine, 7–10 bpingine
seachtain3–10 seachtaine
scilling [ʃk’iliŋ’] a shilling3–10 scillinge
uair3–5 uaire, 6 huaire, 7–10 n-uaire
3–10 lá

Numerals described above can refer both to personal and impersonal nouns. Although, as we will see later personal nouns have also separate forms. It needs to be noted at this place that numerals, more so than other parts of speech, allow a large range of alternative forms. The view presented above is idealized and one has to expect big variations of the forms in texts and in living speech.


Then a bit later there is a section about multiples of ten:

An Ghaeilge, pp. 194–195 wrote:
The traditional way of counting tens between 10 and 100 is vigesimal (eg. 80 is four twenties), but some numbers have their own additional names. Odd tens are 10 added to a multiplicity of 20 (eg. 70 is 10 plus three 20s). The noun appears after the first numeral:
20 horses – fiche capall
30 horses – deich gcapaill fhichead [ihəd]
40 horses – daichead [dahəd] capall
50 horses – deich gcapaill agus daichead or leathchéad [laχ’iad] capall (lit. half-hundred)
60 horses – trí fichid [f’ihid’] capall
70 horses – deich gcapaill agus trí fichid
80 horses – ceithre fichid capall
90 horses – deich gcapaill agus ceithre fichid
100 horses – céad [k’iad] capall
1000 horses – míle [m’i:li] capall

We must add two more notes regarding multiples of twenty. The noun bliain year has a form blian [b’liən] with such numerals, eg. daichead, trí fichid, céad blian. Furthermore multiples of twenty are never accompanied by ceann. Compare the answer to a question An mó leabhar atá uait?How many books do you want?: Daichead (no ceann) and Deich gcinn is daichead (with compulsory cinn).

Numerals céad and míle appear in plural preceded by an article and [with] a noun in singular, eg.: na céadta capall, na mílte capall.


In a much later chapter there is a section describing personal numerals (duine, beirt, triúr, etc.) accompanied by gen.pl. and stating that they are in fact morphologically nouns. Also there is another short section describing the definite article with numerals, stating that before aon, dhá, beirt, fiche, daichead, etc. there is a singular article, with examples: an t-aon chapall amháin, an t-aon fhear amháin, an dá chapall, an bheirt fear, and that before other numerals there is plural article in case of general numerals and singular in case of the personal ones: na trí capaill, an triúr fear. There is also one example of genitive, in which a numeral gets eclipsed: na dtrí bliana úd.

EDIT: added quotation about multiples of ten.


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 Post subject: Re: Forms of the Article
PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2018 1:55 pm 
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Thank you much for sharing that. I am glad to have read it.
I had heard of and been aware of the vigesimal system previously, but seeing it this time it finally clicked to me that "daichead" is "dhá fhichead" .... is that embarrassing that I only just now realized that?

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 Post subject: Re: Forms of the Article
PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2018 7:56 am 
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Numbers in Munster Irish essentially don't make sense past a certain point. I can think of four different ways of saying thirteen cows for example. Whether things are eclipsed, lenited, etc changes within the same sentence by the same speaker.

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