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 Post subject: Forms of the Article
PostPosted: Mon 23 Apr 2018 8:27 pm 
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Hi everybody,

I'm looking to know if anyone more wise than I in these matters can confirm a suspicion of mine.

I've heard people using both forms of the article, "an" and "na", with words like "cúpla". To my mind, it should be the singular form of the article, "an cúpla". Can anybody confirm if this is right or wrong?

Thanks in advance.

Ade.


Edited to expand the question:

A workaround I was trying to crowbar in, instead of using "an/na cúpla" was to use "na chuid" and then I realised I wasn't sure which form of mutation "na" would cause here, if indeed it would cause any at all. "Na chuid", and "na gcuid" seem almost equally likely to me. If anyone can comment on this for me it would be very much appreciated also.


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 Post subject: Re: Forms of the Article
PostPosted: Mon 23 Apr 2018 10:18 pm 
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In Donegal, afaik, we say "na cupla" before a noun (na cupla duine...).
In Standard Irish, they say "an cúpla". I don't know for the other dialects.

I'm not aware that one can use "na" before "cuid". "Na chuid" sounds impossible since "na" doesn't lenite anything. And "cuid" is feminine singular.

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 Post subject: Re: Forms of the Article
PostPosted: Wed 25 Apr 2018 8:21 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
In Donegal, afaik, we say "na cupla" before a noun (na cupla duine...).
In Standard Irish, they say "an cúpla". I don't know for the other dialects.

I'm not aware that one can use "na" before "cuid". "Na chuid" sounds impossible since "na" doesn't lenite anything. And "cuid" is feminine singular.


Ah, that would explain why I have no reference for what to do with "na" and "cuid" together. So, it would be "an chuid" then?

e.g. "Do fuaras an chuid leabhar".


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 Post subject: Re: Forms of the Article
PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr 2018 4:06 am 
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I have seen some strange things like this as well. One thing that comes to mind is "na trí cairde is fearr is na trí naimhde is measa -- tine gaoth agus uisce". I have heard that before, and my thought every time is "How dare they put a plural after a number??"
It is hard to know whether such things are incorrect or are just exceptional. Especially if you are paranoid about purity like I am hahaha

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 Post subject: Re: Forms of the Article
PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr 2018 7:09 am 
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Cúmhaí wrote:
I have seen some strange things like this as well. One thing that comes to mind is "na trí cairde is fearr is na trí naimhde is measa -- tine gaoth agus uisce". I have heard that before, and my thought every time is "How dare they put a plural after a number??"
It is hard to know whether such things are incorrect or are just exceptional. Especially if you are paranoid about purity like I am hahaha


Plurals after numbers are normal in many dialects, esp. Ulster, but Connacht as well, but not so in Standard Irish.


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 Post subject: Re: Forms of the Article
PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr 2018 11:22 am 
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Plurals after numbers is perfectly accepted in standard Irish as well. But the mutations rules aren't the same: there's no séimhiú after 3>6, and you can't use the plural after 1 (of course) and 2.


Quote:
Ah, that would explain why I have no reference for what to do with "na" and "cuid" together. So, it would be "an chuid" then?

e.g. "Do fuaras an chuid leabhar".


"an chuid" isn't used in this case. "Cuid" is used before plurals and massic (?) nouns when they are preceded by a possessive: mo chuid leabhar, etc.

Also, "ana-chuid" means "many" in Munster Irish but it's completely different ("an(a)-" is the suffix that means "very").

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 Post subject: Re: Forms of the Article
PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr 2018 1:43 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:

"an chuid" isn't used in this case. "Cuid" is used before plurals and massic (?) nouns when they are preceded by a possessive: mo chuid leabhar, etc.


Is "leabhar" not (genitive) plural in the example I gave above, "I got the share of books"?


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 Post subject: Re: Forms of the Article
PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr 2018 1:52 pm 
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Ade wrote:
Is "leabhar" not (genitive) plural in the example I gave above, "I got the share of books"?

certainly. of this I have no doubt

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 Post subject: Re: Forms of the Article
PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr 2018 1:57 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Plurals after numbers is perfectly accepted in standard Irish as well. But the mutations rules aren't the same: there's no séimhiú after 3>6, and you can't use the plural after 1 (of course) and 2.



We know about this for words like "bliain" and "ceann" and other measurements of time and counting words, but is it possible to use with generic nouns like "úlla" or "madraí" or something?

Also, it is doubly strange to me to see "na trí cairde" because I would expect either "trí chara" or "triúr cairde/carad"... so it seems like it is even one step further to use a non-animate number with an animate noun and also use a plural after this non-animate number.... sorry for probably not using the correct terms there

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 Post subject: Re: Forms of the Article
PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr 2018 2:49 pm 
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Cúmhaí wrote:
We know about this for words like "bliain" and "ceann" and other measurements of time and counting words, but is it possible to use with generic nouns like "úlla" or "madraí" or something?


Yes. Polish textbook for Munster Irish, An Ghaeilge by Aidan Doyle and Edmund Gussmann, if I recall correctly, does not even mention the version with singular and lenition after numerals. Only plural with no lenition after 3-6. And it exclusively teaches vigesimal (so only a deich is fiche, never tríocha). But I am not home atm. and cannot check in the book what explanation of numerals is exactly given there. I’ll check later this evening if I don’t forget about it. But I am sure I was surprised it was totally contradictory to what Duolingo taught me. ;-)

GnaG also describes both ways:

Quote:
  • The noun following 3-10 is today mostly in the singular, but it is
    • lenited after 3-6 (e.g.: trí bhád = three boats)
    • eclipsed after 7-10 (e.g.: seacht mbád = seven boats)
  • less commonly, the noun following 3-10 is in the plural, but it is
    • not lenited after 3-6 (e.g.: trí bliana = three years)
      (an h-prefix preceding a vowel: e.g.: trí huibhe = 3 eggs)
    • eclipsed after 7-10 (e.g.: seacht mbliana = seven years)


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