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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct 2017 2:39 am 
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Hi!

My name is Patrick and I'm interested in learning the Irish language since many years, and I'm currently studying on my free time with many books and the Rosetta Stone. My first language is French (from Canada) and Irish would be my third language!

What brings me here is a validation/correction of terms from English to French. I plan to design a Tarot deck based on the classic Rider-Waite-Smith, with Irish/Celtic thematic but using the Irish language for the names cards - something that has never been done as I can see.

There we go! I obtained this result with research in dictionaries and had to modify some names as the Irish equivalent were existent, I added the change in parenthesis. Also, I prefer using "Druid" instead of "Magician.

The Major Arcana:

The Fool - An t-amadán
The Magician (Druid) - An druí
The High Priestess - An Ard-Sagart
The Empress (Female Emperor) - An Impire Mná
The Emperor - An Impire
The Hierophant - An Gheimhridh
The Lovers - An leannán
The Chariot (Carriage) - An carbad
Strength - Neart
The Hermit - An Díogán
Wheel of Fortune (Wheel of Fate) - Roth Cinniúint
Justice - Dlí agus Cirt
The Hanged Man - An Fear Crochta
Death - Bás
Temperance - Éadóchas
The Devil - An Diabhal
The Tower - An Túr
The star - An réalta
The Moon - An ghealach
The Sun - An ghrian
Judgment - Breithiúnas
The World - An domhain

The Court Cards Titles:

Page - Leathanach na [suit name]
Knight - Ridire na [suit name]
Queen - Banríon na [suit name]
King - Rí na [suit name]

The Four Suits Names:

[number] of Wand (rods) - ... de na slata
[number] of Swords - ... de na claimhte
[number] of Pentacles (coins) - ... de na boinn
[number] of Cups - ... de na cupáin

Also, I'm not sure with the right capitalization of the Irish words...

Thanks in advance for the help!

Slán! :hullo:


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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct 2017 2:45 am 
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Heh... sorry for the typo :facepalm: "from English to Irish" :)


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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct 2017 3:03 pm 
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Lots of issues here. Some have incorrect grammar, some of the words are outright wrong. "hierophant" has no direct translation in Irish. "an gheimhridh" is the word "geimhreadh" winter in the genitive case, and it seems you used Google Translate to get that result. DO NOT USE GOOGLE TRANSLATE. The risk of gibberish is too high.

I'll try correct a few of them.

"The High Priestess - An Ard-Sagart" This doesn't denote a priestess, it simply means "high priest" without specifying gender. It should also be spelled "An tArdsagart". (The "t" is a necessary grammatical thing called an "urú" or eclipsis in English). "bansagart" can be used for priestess. Perhaps "An Bansagart Ard" for "The High Priestess". Or, making it a complete compound word, "An tArdbansagart".

"The Empress (Female Emperor) - An Impire Mná" Not sure where you got this. Maybe you are combining individual words from the dictionary? You have to be careful doing this. "Mná" is the genitive singular case of "bean" which means "woman". "The Empress" is "An Banimpire" in Irish.

"The Emperor - An Impire" This should be "An tImpire". The "t" is added because "impire" is a masculine word. This is known as eclipsis.

"The Hierophant - An Gheimhridh" I noted the issues with this above. This doesn't seem to have a direct translation into Irish. It probably won't be easy to translate if the concept of what a hierophant is didn't exist in Irish culture. I would await more learned input on this point.

"The Lovers - An leannán" This means "the lover". "Na leannáin" means "The lovers".

"The Chariot (Carriage) - An carbad". This is fine. "carbad" should technically be capitalised like the English but this was probably just a typo.

"Strength - Neart" This is fine. There are tons of options here of course, but what you have is fine.

"The Hermit - An Díogán" Can't find a reference for this in a good dictionary, just in Google Translate. It's probably wrong. Couple of options found here. http://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/hermit

"Wheel of Fortune (Wheel of Fate) - Roth Cinniúint" Here we have another situation where taking out individual words just doesn't work. "roth" is wheel and "cinniúint" is fate, but "Wheel of Fate" must be rendered "Roth Cinniúna" (genitive case again). Now, this probably needs to have a definite article, as the wheel of fate is a defined thing. "An Roth Cinniúnna". The Wheel of Fate".

"Justice - Dlí agus Cirt" "Ceartas" is a better option. What you have isn't really correct.

"The Hanged Man - An Fear Crochta" Correct.

"Death - Bás" Are you referring to death in general, or something like the grimreaper? If you are just referring to it in a vague sense, what you have is fine, otherwise the definite article is required. "An Bás".

"Temperance - Éadóchas" Hmm, not sure where you got this, this is more like "despair" or "hopelessness". http://www.teanglann.ie/en/eid/temperance

"The Devil - An Diabhal" Fine.

"The Tower - An Túr" Other options possible, but as a general word this is good.

"The star - An réalta" Fine.

"The Moon - An ghealach" The "g" should be capitalised in Irish if you have it so in English.

"The Sun - An ghrian" This fine, but same issue as above.

"Judgment - Breithiúnas" This is fine.

"The World - An domhain" "d" should be capitalised if it is so in English. Should be "An Domhan" (no "i" that's only in specific grammatical cases).

For the Court Card titles, it might not be as cut and dry as slotting in your suit names, the grammar could change from one to the next. Can you give an example of a suit name so that we can help structure it? Give an example of what you might want to say in a whole sentence basically.

Wait for more input/corrections etc.


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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct 2017 6:07 pm 
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Quote:
"The Hermit - An Díogán" Can't find a reference for this in a good dictionary, just in Google Translate. It's probably wrong.

I checked my Scottish Gaelic dictionaries to see whether this might be a Gaelic word for hermit (Google gets the two languages mixed up at times). It appears not to be, but my etymological dictionary says there was an old Irish word, díogan (no accent on the "a"), which meant "revenge". The word seems to have dropped out of usage, however, and wouldn't work for hermit anyway.

I also googled the word díogán, and the results were very odd. It's used on a number of Irish-language sites selling Chinese kitchenware, but I can't tell what it's supposed to mean there. I suppose it might be a transliteration into Irish of a Chinese word or name. Very strange (the very existence of the sites is strange)! I also tried the word in Vicipéid, the Irish version of Wikipedia, thinking that it might be the name of some legendary hermit, but it doesn't exist there.

_________________
I'm not a native (or entirely fluent) speaker, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.


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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct 2017 7:03 pm 
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Joined: Sat 21 Oct 2017 2:18 am
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Thanks a lot for the help, it is very appreciated!

The Minor Arcana are divided in 4 suits (Swords, Cups/Chalices, Wands/Rods, Pentacles/Coins), each of them contains the cards numbered Ace (1) to 10 followed by the page, the Knight, the Queen and the King. So, here they are:

Ace of Swords / Ace of Cups / Ace of Wands / Ace of Pentacles
2 of Swords / 2 of Cups / 2 of Wands / 2 of Pentacles
3 of Swords / 3 of Cups / 3 of Wands / 3 of Pentacles
4 of Swords / 4 of Cups / 4 of Wands / 4 of Pentacles
5 of Swords / 5 of Cups / 5 of Wands / 5 of Pentacles
6 of Swords / 6 of Cups / 6 of Wands / 6 of Pentacles
7 of Swords / 7 of Cups / 7 of Wands / 7 of Pentacles
8 of Swords / 8 of Cups / 8 of Wands / 8 of Pentacles
9 of Swords / 9 of Cups / 9 of Wands / 9 of Pentacles
10 of Swords / 10 of Cups / 10 of Wands / 10 of Pentacles
Page of Swords / Page of Cups / Page of Wands / Page of Pentacles
Knight of Swords / Knight of Cups / Knight of Wands / Knight of Pentacles
Queen of Swords / Queen of Cups / Queen of Wands / Queen of Pentacles
King of Swords / King of Cups / King of Wands / King of Pentacles


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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct 2017 7:19 pm 
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The Hierophant was called The Pope originally. Symbolically, it is someone forming a bridge between Heaven and Earth. Another name that is popular is The High Priest.

For the Hermit, I've picked díseartach from the link you gave me. This Hermit is a wise-man reflecting on his life, not a poor or a homeless.
For temperance, I've picked Measarthacht from the link you gave me. The card technically means "To break out into excesses".

Thank you so much!


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PostPosted: Sat 21 Oct 2017 7:30 pm 
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I finally decided to change "The Hermit" name for "The Sage", which I translate by "An Saoi". Is it correct?


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PostPosted: Sun 22 Oct 2017 10:16 am 
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Gumbi wrote:
"The High Priestess - An Ard-Sagart" This doesn't denote a priestess, it simply means "high priest" without specifying gender. It should also be spelled "An tArdsagart". (The "t" is a necessary grammatical thing called an "urú" or eclipsis in English). "bansagart" can be used for priestess. Perhaps "An Bansagart Ard" for "The High Priestess". Or, making it a complete compound word, "An tArdbansagart".


An tArd-Bhansagart
Usually, more than one prefix is separated by a hyphen.

BTW: A prefixed t- isn't called urú/eclipsis. First of all because no consonant is eclipsed in nouns beginning with vowels.
But even in case of a t-prefix in nouns with s- (e.g. "cárta an tsagairt") it isn't called urú either because it occurs only in lenition environments. It is a different kind of mutation.

Quote:
"The Hierophant - An Gheimhridh" I noted the issues with this above. This doesn't seem to have a direct translation into Irish. It probably won't be easy to translate if the concept of what a hierophant is didn't exist in Irish culture. I would await more learned input on this point.


An Pápa = The Pope will do, I think.
A hierophant hasn't existed in any culture since ancient Greece.
But, while many languages can use the latinized Greek spelling "hierophant", Irish cannot. The spelling must be adapted accord. to Irish spelling rules., like "An tIairifint". But this would probably be a neologism in Irish perhaps never written before. (iairi- because of similar iairiglif = hieroglyph, -fint because of eilifint = elephant. Unfortunately eilifint is usually feminine in Irish, but it can be masculine as well, so masculine An tIairifint maybe okay.

Quote:
"Strength - Neart" This is fine. There are tons of options here of course, but what you have is fine.
[/quote]

I'd prefer An Neart because such words are usually accompanied by the article in Irish.


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PostPosted: Sun 22 Oct 2017 10:58 am 
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GRMA for the grammatical correction a Labhráis. I need to be careful throwing around grammatical terms sometimes ;/


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PostPosted: Sun 22 Oct 2017 3:08 pm 
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Thanks again!

So, this is what I have for the moment:

The Fool An t-amadán
The Magician (The Druid) An druí
The High Priestess An tArd-Bhansagart
The Empress An Banimpire
The Emperor An tImpire
The Hierophant (The Pope) An Pápa
The Lovers Na leannáin
The Chariot (The Carriage) An Carbad
Strength Neart
The Hermit (The Sage) An Saoi
Wheel of Fortune (Wheel of Fate) Roth Cinniúna
Justice Ceartas
The Hanged Man An Fear Crochta
Death Bás
Temperance Measarthacht
The Devil An Diabhal
The Tower An Túr
The star An réalta
The Moon An Ghealach
The Sun An Ghrian
Judgment Breithiúnas
The World An Domhan

Some words doesn't come with an article (Strength, Wheel of Fortune, Justice, Death, Temperance, Judgment) so maybe I should let them that way...

For the Minor Arcana, is it ok to say: 1 de na slata (1 of wands/rods), ... , Leathanach de na slata (Page of Wands), Ridire de na slata (Knight of Wands), Banríon de na slata (Queen of Wands), Rí de na slata (King of Wands)?

Thanks again for all your help on this!


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