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 Post subject: Got a question on "ar"
PostPosted: Tue 05 Sep 2017 2:47 pm 
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I may be reading this wrong, so please set me right if I am.

I recently used the sentence "Cuireann 'ár' úrú ar consain." I'm reading "consonants" there as a general reference, in keeping with this entry in FGB:

http://www.teanglann.ie/ga/fgb/ar

I've just had someone tell me that "consain" requires séimhiú in that sentence. Does it really? That wouldn't seem to be in keeping with the FGB listing. If I'm wrong, I don't mind saying so (wouldn't be the first time), but if I am, I want to know why. "Ár puts eclipsis on consonants" seems pretty general to me!

Thanks!

Redwolf


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Sep 2017 5:00 pm 
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Redwolf wrote:
I may be reading this wrong, so please set me right if I am.

I recently used the sentence "Cuireann 'ár' úrú ar consain." I'm reading "consonants" there as a general reference, in keeping with this entry in FGB:

http://www.teanglann.ie/ga/fgb/ar

I've just had someone tell me that "consain" requires séimhiú in that sentence. Does it really? That wouldn't seem to be in keeping with the FGB listing. If I'm wrong, I don't mind saying so (wouldn't be the first time), but if I am, I want to know why. "Ár puts eclipsis on consonants" seems pretty general to me!


It depends on what "general" means here, which is hard to understand (at least for me) and so even harder to explain, though I think I have a clue (and a faded memory that I read something on this matter long ago). Perhaps the word "generic" is more exact than "general", I think. It is an abstraction from the particular item.

"General" in this sense can't normally be plural because plural is usually a form of particularization, not generalization.*)

In another thread I had the probably correct idea to compare this Irish "general use" of nouns with English zero article use vs. indefinite/definite article (again only in singular, in plural there's no indefinite article in English).
E.g. ar muir = on sea, ar mhuir = on a sea, ar an muir = on the sea.
or: ar cíos = for rent, ar chíos = for a rent, ar an gcíos = for the rent

*) There are exceptions as "ar cosa in airde", of course. Usually everyone has two (or four in the case of horses) feet, so "generalisation" has to consider this in some phrases and idioms.
"On seas", on the other hand, isn't general in this sense but means "on some seas", on two seas or three or on all (particular) seas, so "ar mhara" in Irish.
"On consonants" means "on particular consonants", as well, so "ar chonsain"


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PostPosted: Wed 06 Sep 2017 2:41 pm 
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There's nothing to do with being general or not. "Ar" lenites except in set phrases. If there's a set phrase, look at the noun in the dictionary, the set phrase will be written. Otherwise: not a set phrase = lenition.

"Ar chonsain" is not a set phrase so there's a lenition. As simple as that!

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PostPosted: Thu 07 Sep 2017 5:17 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
There's nothing to do with being general or not. "Ar" lenites except in set phrases. If there's a set phrase, look at the noun in the dictionary, the set phrase will be written. Otherwise: not a set phrase = lenition.

"Ar chonsain" is not a set phrase so there's a lenition. As simple as that!


GRMA!


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PostPosted: Tue 12 Sep 2017 6:38 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
There's nothing to do with being general or not. "Ar" lenites except in set phrases. If there's a set phrase, look at the noun in the dictionary, the set phrase will be written. Otherwise: not a set phrase = lenition.

"Ar chonsain" is not a set phrase so there's a lenition. As simple as that!


I would not be so quick to discount Labhrás completely. Your response seems to suggest that the Irish just randomly decided to make up set phrases that break the general rules. But I'm sure you don't think that's true. Perhaps it may be easier for a learner to memorise phrases instead of understanding a rule or reasoning, but that does not mean that no rule or reasoning exists. There must be some kind of semantic distinction responsible at some level.
Your response may answer the question "why séimhiú in this example and why no séimhiú in this example" but Labhrás was attempting to answer the question of "why are there situations where séimhiú is not present at all."

Anyway I doubt I am saying anything new to anyone... but sometimes I get frustrated how people talk about Irish as though everything is incomprehensible and must be memorised by rote. This isn't Soviet Russia!

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Sep 2017 1:47 pm 
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Ní chuireann "ar" séimhiú ar ainmfhocal i bhfrásaí go raibh an réamhfhocal "for" ionta i Nua-Ghaelainn Moch. Mar shampla:

Chuaigh sé for bord => (an lá atá inniubh ann) Chuaigh sé ar bord

Cath for Bóinn => Cath ar Bóinn

Ciall dobhriathartha a bhí ag frásaí mar "for X", in inead na céille áitreabhach a bhí ag "ar".

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Sep 2017 3:01 pm 
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Redwolf wrote:
I may be reading this wrong, so please set me right if I am.

I recently used the sentence "Cuireann 'ár' úrú ar consain." I'm reading "consonants" there as a general reference, in keeping with this entry in FGB:

http://www.teanglann.ie/ga/fgb/ar

I've just had someone tell me that "consain" requires séimhiú in that sentence. Does it really? That wouldn't seem to be in keeping with the FGB listing. If I'm wrong, I don't mind saying so (wouldn't be the first time), but if I am, I want to know why. "Ár puts eclipsis on consonants" seems pretty general to me!

Thanks!

Redwolf


I'd take it as a general rule that ar lenites.

As Lughaidh and Labhrás were saying--they are essentially saying the same thing--its only certain abstract formulaic phrases with ar, which tend to be 'zero article' phrases, that don't lenite the following consonant, e.g. ar bord loinge, ar cíos etc... otherwise ar causes lenition.

An Lon Dubh wrote:
Ní chuireann "ar" séimhiú ar ainmfhocal i bhfrásaí go raibh an réamhfhocal "for" ionta i Nua-Ghaelainn Moch. Mar shampla:

Chuaigh sé for bord => (an lá atá inniubh ann) Chuaigh sé ar bord

Cath for Bóinn => Cath ar Bóinn

Ciall dobhriathartha a bhí ag frásaí mar "for X", in inead na céille áitreabhach a bhí ag "ar".


'Sé for an ghnáthfhoirm Seana-Ghaoluinne do ar,agus ní raibh aon athrú tosaigh ag baint leis de ghnáth-- ach mar sin fhéinig, gheibhtear samplaí insna gluaiseannaibh ina gcuireann for séimhiú ar an gconsan ina dhéidh chón maith. Gnéith Mheán-Ghaoluinne isea an t-athrú ó for go ar, agus le linn an ré chéanna tosnaítear ar shéimhiú a chur ar chonsan ina dhéidh go rialta. Do bhí ar sa tSeana-Ghaoluinn dhéanach alright, ach íar 'before' do bhí ann go bunúsach, thá sé fós againn i bhfrásaí siocaithe, e.g. diaidh ar ndiadh, .i. diadh iar ndiaidh.

Cian

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I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Sep 2017 3:52 pm 
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GRMA as an eolas a Chionnfhaolaigh!

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Sep 2017 5:40 pm 
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GRMMAgaibh!


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PostPosted: Fri 15 Sep 2017 1:36 pm 
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An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
'Sé for an ghnáthfhoirm Seana-Ghaoluinne do ar,agus ní raibh aon athrú tosaigh ag baint leis de ghnáth-- ach mar sin fhéinig, gheibhtear samplaí insna gluaiseannaibh ina gcuireann for séimhiú ar an gconsan ina dhéidh chón maith. Gnéith Mheán-Ghaoluinne isea an t-athrú ó for go ar, agus le linn an ré chéanna tosnaítear ar shéimhiú a chur ar chonsan ina dhéidh go rialta. Do bhí ar sa tSeana-Ghaoluinn dhéanach alright, ach íar 'before' do bhí ann go bunúsach, thá sé fós againn i bhfrásaí siocaithe, e.g. diaidh ar ndiadh, .i. diadh iar ndiaidh.

Cian

Nach iontach an chuisle éigse thú, a Chiain! :GRMA:

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