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 Post subject: Re: Ceist faoi "á"
PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug 2016 10:32 am 
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Cúmhaí wrote:
Another unrelated question

Which is right?

"If the party were tonight, John and I wouldn't stay home."
Dá mbeadh an chóisir anocht, ní fhanfaimis mé féin agus Seán sa bhaile
Dá mbeadh an chóisir anocht, ní fhanfaidís mé féin agus Seán sa bhaile

or the one I suspect is most likely right:
Dá mbeadh an chóisir anocht, ní fhanfadh mé féin agus Seán sa bhaile


In fact another version is right:

Dá mbeadh an chóisir anocht, ní fhanfainn féin agus Seán sa bhaile

(In case of more subjects than one, the verb agrees only with the first subject)

Cúmhaí wrote:
"Who stole it? He and she did."
Cé a ghoid é? Is é féin agus í féin iad a rinne é.
Cé a ghoid é? Is iad é féin agus í féin a rinne é.


Is é féin agus í féin a rinne é. (no iad)

Probably Is iad, (is é sin:) é féin agus í féin, a rinne é. is correct as well. (They, i.e. he and she, stole it)

Cúmhaí wrote:
Cé a ghoid é? Eisean agus ise a rinne é.


Correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Ceist faoi "á"
PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug 2016 1:36 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
Cé a ghortaigh thú?

Labhrás wrote:
Ní hé seo a bhí mé á léamh.


Labhrás wrote:
Dá mbeadh an chóisir anocht, ní fhanfainn féin agus Seán sa bhaile

Labhrás wrote:
Is é féin agus í féin a rinne é. (no iad)

Labhrás wrote:
Cúmhaí wrote:
Cé a ghoid é? Eisean agus ise a rinne é.


Correct.


Thank you so much! Go raibh maith is míle agat

Cúmhaí wrote:
Is this a thing? (even more tangential)

"You're the expert I respect the most"'
Is tú an t-eolaí dar mhó mo mheas


Labhrás wrote:
Probably Is tusa ... would be preferred.

And: ... ar ar mhó mo mheas ("ar ar" instead of dar)
but rather: ... ar mhó mo mheas air
(meas ar dhuine, not: meas do dhuine)


Okay so the reason I was thinking dar can also mean "ar ar" is these examples I came across:
"Bhí cat darb ainm Eibhlín aici"
tá ainm ar dhuine, right?
"'Sé an mac dar mhó ár gcion"
tá cion ar dhuine, right??

Did I misinterpret these examples or is there something else going on here?

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 Post subject: Re: Ceist faoi "á"
PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug 2016 4:54 pm 
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Cúmhaí wrote:

Okay so the reason I was thinking dar can also mean "ar ar" is these examples I came across:
"Bhí cat darb ainm Eibhlín aici"
tá ainm ar dhuine, right?


There are different forms.

cat darb ainm Eibhlín (a cat named Eibhlín)

The underlying form is
Eibhlín is ainm don chat. (The cat is named E.)
compare with:
Labhrás is ainm dom. (My name is L.) -> fear darb ainm Labhrás (a man named L.)
Sue is ainm dó (He is named Sue) -> buachaill darb ainm Sue (a boy named Sue)


A different form is:
Eibhlín an t-ainm atá ar an gcat.

Cúmhaí wrote:
"'Sé an mac dar mhó ár gcion"
tá cion ar dhuine, right??



dar is a form of do or de but not of ar.
The corresponding form for the preposition ar is "ar ar", sometimes "arnar" (but mostly "ar .... air/uirthi/orthu")
The corresponding form for the preposition le is "lenar" (or "ar ... leis/léi/leo")
The corresponding form for the preposition i is "inar" (or "ar ... ann/inti/iontu")
etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Ceist faoi "á"
PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug 2016 5:24 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
Cúmhaí wrote:
"'Sé an mac dar mhó ár gcion"
tá cion ar dhuine, right??



dar is a form of do or de but not of ar.
The corresponding form for the preposition ar is "ar ar", sometimes "arnar" (but mostly "ar .... air/uirthi/orthu")
The corresponding form for the preposition le is "lenar" (or "ar ... leis/léi/leo")
The corresponding form for the preposition i is "inar" (or "ar ... ann/inti/iontu")
etc.


Okay so I take it then that "'Sé an mac dar mhó ár gcion" is a reflection of
Is mó ár gcion don mac sin instead of Is mó ár gcion ar an mac sin which I had assumed, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Ceist faoi "á"
PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug 2016 5:30 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
Cúmhaí wrote:
There are different forms.

cat darb ainm Eibhlín (a cat named Eibhlín)

The underlying form is
Eibhlín is ainm don chat. (The cat is named E.)
compare with:
Labhrás is ainm dom. (My name is L.) -> fear darb ainm Labhrás (a man named L.)
Sue is ainm dó (He is named Sue) -> buachaill darb ainm Sue (a boy named Sue)


A different form is:
Eibhlín an t-ainm atá ar an gcat.


Okay so the equivalents of cat darb ainm Eibhlín using ar are:
cat ar ar ainm Eibhlín
cat ar a bhfuil an t-ainm Eibhlín
cat a bhfuil [an t-ainm] Eibhlín air
but are you suggesting also:
cat ar ainm Eibhlín air

In a context like,
Bhíodh cat ar ar ainm Eibhlín againn nuair a bhíos i mo pháiste ach tá cat nua darb ainm Máire anois againn.
Would it be natural to mix them up? Is that even right?
Bhíodh cat ar a raibh an t-ainm Eibhlín againn nuair a bhí mé i mo pháiste ach tá cat nua a bhfuil Máire air anois againn.
That one sounds decent to me -- is it?
And this one seems the best -- is it? :
Bhíodh cat a raibh Eibhlín air againn nuair a bhí mé i mo pháiste ach tá cat nua a bhfuil Máire air anois againn.

When the cat has a female name, would it be feasible to imagine "cat a bhfuil Máire uirthi"?

Is a sentence like this imaginable?
Tá cat againn a bhfuil Máire air ach tugaim 'Meow'ire air nuair nach bhfuil duine ar bith ag éisteacht
Maybe I didn't quite get that right, but I mean the idea of putting different things ar an gcat

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 Post subject: Re: Ceist faoi "á"
PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug 2016 7:42 pm 
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Cúmhaí wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
Cúmhaí wrote:
"'Sé an mac dar mhó ár gcion"
tá cion ar dhuine, right??



dar is a form of do or de but not of ar.
The corresponding form for the preposition ar is "ar ar", sometimes "arnar" (but mostly "ar .... air/uirthi/orthu")
The corresponding form for the preposition le is "lenar" (or "ar ... leis/léi/leo")
The corresponding form for the preposition i is "inar" (or "ar ... ann/inti/iontu")
etc.


Okay so I take it then that "'Sé an mac dar mhó ár gcion" is a reflection of
Is mó ár gcion don mac sin instead of Is mó ár gcion ar an mac sin which I had assumed, right?


Yes, it would be a reflection …
But I doubt that do can be used here.


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 Post subject: Re: Ceist faoi "á"
PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug 2016 8:08 pm 
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Cúmhaí wrote:

Okay so the equivalents of cat darb ainm Eibhlín using ar are:
cat ar ar ainm Eibhlín


This (probably) doesn't exist. "ar ar" is a copula construction
But "ainm ar" is used with the verb bí.

You can’t mix them.

That's why:

Quote:
cat ar a bhfuil an t-ainm Eibhlín
cat a bhfuil [an t-ainm] Eibhlín air


Yes.

Quote:
but are you suggesting also:
cat ar ainm Eibhlín air


No, same as above (cat ar ar ainm Eibhlín): In copula sentences do is necessary

cat darb ainm Eibhlín
or
cat arb ainm Eibhlín dó
or (i gcaint na ndaoine) even:
cat darb ainm Eibhlín dó (with do twice)

Quote:
In a context like,
Bhíodh cat ar ar ainm Eibhlín againn nuair a bhíos i mo pháiste ach tá cat nua darb ainm Máire anois againn.
Would it be natural to mix them up? Is that even right?


cat ar ar ... still wrong (see above)

Quote:
Bhíodh cat ar a raibh an t-ainm Eibhlín againn nuair a bhí mé i mo pháiste ach tá cat nua a bhfuil Máire air anois againn.
That one sounds decent to me -- is it?
And this one seems the best -- is it? :
Bhíodh cat a raibh Eibhlín air againn nuair a bhí mé i mo pháiste ach tá cat nua a bhfuil Máire air anois againn.


Yes. (as far as I know)

Quote:
When the cat has a female name, would it be feasible to imagine "cat a bhfuil Máire uirthi"?


Usually not.
Female cats are grammatically masculine (including pronouns).
But usage differs a lot with some pets, maybe including cats. I don’t know.

Quote:
Is a sentence like this imaginable?
Tá cat againn a bhfuil Máire air ach tugaim 'Meow'ire air nuair nach bhfuil duine ar bith ag éisteacht
Maybe I didn't quite get that right, but I mean the idea of putting different things ar an gcat


Beside the fact that "Meow" isn’t an Irish word, it’s okay.
B’fhearr "Meamhla", b’fhéidir.


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 Post subject: Re: Ceist faoi "á"
PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug 2016 8:18 pm 
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Thanks again, man. You're a rockstar

Labhrás wrote:
Beside the fact that "Meow" isn’t an Irish word, it’s okay.
B’fhearr "Meamhla", b’fhéidir.


Tá cat againn a bhfuil Órla air ach tugaim Meamhla air nuair nach bhfuil duine ar bith ag éisteacht

Is sármhaith an ainm é sin. Five stars for Meamhla. Really thar barr

Or maybe míáúla haha

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Last edited by Cúmhaí on Tue 09 Aug 2016 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ceist faoi "á"
PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug 2016 8:21 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
Cúmhaí wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
Cúmhaí wrote:
"'Sé an mac dar mhó ár gcion"

dar is a form of do or de but not of ar.

Okay so I take it then that "'Sé an mac dar mhó ár gcion" is a reflection of

Yes, it would be a reflection …
But I doubt that do can be used here.


Okay wait so why is 'Sé an mac dar mhó ár gcion a thing, then? Or are you saying that you doubt that it is a thing as opposed to doubting my reflection?

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 Post subject: Re: Ceist faoi "á"
PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug 2016 8:34 pm 
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Tá ceist eile agam

"Who (on earth) wants to learn more about the Great Hunger??"

Is this right:

Cér mhaith leis níos mó eolais a fháil faoin nGorta Mór?
or
Cé leis ar mhaith níos mó...?
or
Cé faoi Dhia ar mhaith leis níos mó...?

or perhaps a different approach

Cé uaidh a bhfuil níos mó eolais faoin nGorta Mór?
or
Cé a bhfuil níos mó .... uaidh?
or
Cé uaidh a theastaíonn níos mó eolais faoin nGorta Mór a fháil?

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