Hello,

I am looking to get an ogham (old Irish writing) tattoo. I want it to be for the word family. However there are several Irish words for family and I am unsure which to use..

Clann
Teaghlach
Muintir

Any assistance is appreciated.

Best

general defined usage

clann - implies children of a family

teaghlach - implies entire household (parents and children)

muintir - can be used to refer to ones family as in "where is your family from" but can often mean "where are your people from" also used to identify or refer to a community (or a group of people with some common relation/attribute)

go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham for the individual ogham letters, or email me at DesNolan@OptOnline.Net and I'll send you an image of them. You can also download the ogham font for use in Microsoft Word from http://www.fontspace.com/curtis-clark/celtic-ogham extract the zipped files and copy them to the word font directory which may or may not be for you C:\Program Files\Microsoft Office 15\root\vfs\Fonts\private..then open Word clean and select the font Beth-Luis-Fearn

Hi, a chara,

I don't know how much about Ogham or Irish you know, so here I'll take it that you don't know much, just in case

Firstly, the Ogham script was used to write Primitive Irish (c. 4th century until 7th century) rather than Modern Irish (compare Prim. VELITAS, Mod. FILE) which means that despite what you might find online or on souvenirs, it isn't suited for the current Roman spelling used today. The script doesn't indicate lenition (bh,ch,dh etc.) which are vital to modern Irish spelling, for example.

Now, if you want an Ogham tattoo you need to decide whether you want a Modern Irish word written in the script (which would be like transcribing Russian using Latin characters, for example) or a Primitive Irish word written in the script (even though the word may have to be reconstructed since it isn't attested).

Also, you might want to think more about what meaning in particular you mean with "family" as it can cover many meanings in English where Irish used different words altogether.

MOD. IRISH WORD:

Clann (< Old Irish cland) means one's children, or the family that one produces so to say, i.e. progeny. It comes from Latin planta (through Old Welsh plant), like English "plant", implying offspring as an offshoot (p is originally a foreign letter in Irish, btw).
The word can also mean "clan/tribe" (clan obviously comes from clann) seeing as the Gaelic clans were typically united by a common ancestor, perceiving themselves as his descendants (which English "family" can encompass).
Many speakers and learners use this term for the modern concept of "the nuclear family", but this is historically inaccurate and, in my opinion, inadequate as a term. That's just my say in it though - "clann" would be perfectly understood as "family" amongst Irish speakers.

Teaghlach means "household", from Old Irish teghlach < techlach < tech (modern teach, meaning "house"). It is also used for "family", but really means something along the lines of "the people living under one roof". I'd probably use this for "nuclear family" in speech.

Muintir comes from Old Irish muinter < muntar/montar. It's etymology is disputed, possibly from Latin monasterium "monastery", or from *manu-tera "that which is under the hand, ie. the authority" or from native Celtic *moni (Irish has muin "protection"). This term can mean "family/household" (mo mhuintir = my family), or it can be used in a broader sense meaning people (muintir na háite = the locals, lit. people of the place) or followers united in some way or another.

Fine is another possibility, meaning "family group". It comes from Celtic *weniyā ("family") from Proto-Indo-European (PIE) *wenh₁- ‎(“love, desire”), which gave Old English wine ‎(“friend”). That wine is the second element of Lord of the Ring's Éowyn (lit. horse-friend), btw This word is also in the name of an Irish political party, Fine Gael (family of the Gaels). This word is a little outdated in my opinion - like you'd never hear someone say "m'fhine" meaning "my family (at home)" at all - but it's nice and broad for covering "family" as a tattoo.

Right, so there's a bit there to think about.
Here are pronunciation guides (more accurate IPA transcriptions, and rough English approximations) of the three main dialectal pronunciations of those four words:

Gaoth Dobhair (Gweedore, co. Donegal in northwest of Ireland - Ulster Dialect)
/kl̻ˠan̻ˠ/ "KLUHN"; /'tʲeː.l̻ˠah/ "TCHEY-lah"; /'mˠi.tʲiɾʲ/ "MWIH-tchir"; /'fʲi.nʲə/ "FIH-n(y)uh"

Conamara (Connemara, co. Galway in west of Ireland - Connacht Dialect)
/kl̻ˠaːn̻ˠ/ "KLAWN"; /'tʲa.l̻ˠəx/ "TCHA-luhkh"; /'mˠiːn̻ʲ.tʲəɾʲ/ "MWEEN-t(ch)ir"; /'fʲi.nʲə/ "FIH-n(y)uh"

Corca Dhuibhne (Dingle Peninsula, co. Kerry in southwest of Ireland - Munster Dialect)
/klˠaunˠ/ "CLOWN"; /'tʲai.lˠəx/ "TY-luhkh"; /'mˠiːn̻ʲ.tʲəɾʲ/ "MWEEN-tir"; /'fʲi.nʲə/ "FIH-nuh"

These words transcribed without change (letter for letter, though inaccurate) to Ogham are as follows:
clann > CLANN = ᚛ᚉᚂᚐᚅᚅ᚜
teaghlach > TEAGHLACH = ᚛ᚈᚕᚌᚆᚂᚐᚉᚆ᚜
muintir > MUINTIR = ᚛ᚋᚗᚅᚈᚔᚏ᚜
fine > FINE = ᚛ᚃᚔᚅᚓ᚜

With lenition and glide vowels removed:
clann > CLANN = ᚛ᚉᚂᚐᚅᚅ᚜ or with old irish CLAND = ᚛ᚉᚂᚐᚅᚇ᚜
teaghlach > TEGLAC = ᚛ᚈᚓᚌᚂᚐᚉ᚜
muintir > MUNTIR = ᚛ᚋᚒᚅᚈᚔᚏ᚜
fine > FINE = ᚛ᚃᚔᚅᚓ᚜


PRIMITIVE IRISH WORD:

Now, if you'd prefer a word suited for Ogham script, I'd say using a primitive Irish word would be better. This stage in the development of Irish is very poorly documented, since it was only ever written down on Ogham standing stones (except when later found in academic scribal notes after it had progressed to Old Irish), and even then, most of the inscriptions are names.
This unfortunately means that for the tattoo, a word would need to be reconstructed. As a stand-alone word, "family" would need to be in the Nominative case, and the vast majority of Ogham is found in the Genitive case (indicating possession, like "John" in "Marcus son of John").

Right, now the problem is that none of these words bar fine appear to predate Old Irish. So the most realistic reconstructed form would be:
fine < *weniyā; therefore maybe *VINIA = ᚛ᚃᚔᚅᚘ᚜ or earlier *VENIA = ᚛ᚃᚓᚅᚘ᚜; or without combined IA (ᚘ) symbol, *VINIA = ᚛ᚃᚔᚅᚔᚐ᚜ and *VENIA = ᚛ᚃᚓᚅᚔᚐ᚜

For the others, I'll give possible transcribtions:
clann < cland > *CLAND = ᚛ᚉᚂᚐᚅᚇ᚜; or *QLAND = ᚛ᚊᚂᚐᚅᚇ᚜
muintir < muinter > *MUNTER = ᚛ᚋᚒᚅᚈᚓᚏ᚜; or *MONTAR = ᚛ᚋᚑᚅᚈᚐᚏ᚜; or like QRIMITIR, *MUNTIR = ᚛ᚋᚒᚅᚈᚔᚏ᚜
teaghlach < teglach < techlach > *TEGOLACO = ᚛ᚈᚓᚌᚑᚂᚐᚉᚑ᚜; or maybe *TEGOLACC = ᚛ᚈᚓᚌᚑᚂᚐᚉᚉ᚜

Hope there's enough here for some more though on the tattoo!

Clann is a word of Latin orign (< planta). It was probably inexistant in Ogham times
Muintir is said to be also an early Latin borrowing (< monasterium)
teaghlach is TEGOSLOUGOS in Primitive Irish (acc. to McBain's etymological dictionary)

Thank you all so much for the information (Especially Embarien). I found it helpful and very informative. I am wanting the word to represent more of family has heritage to include all generations above and below.

I am wondering if tribe is a better word. Does anyone have any information regarding the Old or Primitive word for tribe?

I found one treibh...

What do you think?

Nice work Embarien.



If cland is indeed a loan loanword via British Latin,* the Insular Celtic distinction between Brithonic /p/ (e.g. pland) and Old Irish /c-/ (e.g. cland)** would suggest that the word entered the language prior to c. 550 AD; as words that enter the language prior to this date seem to observe the c/ p distinction: Latin Pacha > Old Ir. Cásc; Latin Patricus > Old Ir. *Cothraic/ Cothraic*** [still disputed] > Pátraic (aka. St. Patrick); Latin apostolus, Old Ir. axal (< ac(h)sal), interestingly featuring later with -p-, i.e. apstal. Whereas, words that entered the language at a later date have incorporated p- (cf. axal and apstal).**** Therefore, it is likely that cland did indeed exist when ogam was flourishing.

*There is a good possibility that it comes from Latin, I would think, given the fact that the initial p- is retained. One of the strongest features of Proto-Celtic is the loss of p- in initial position (e.g. Old Ir: athair; Welsh tad is from a different root), which has been kept by most other Indo-European langauges: cf. Proto-Indo-European *ph₂tḗr; Latin pater; Ancient Greek πατήρ ‎(patḗr); Armenian հայր ‎(hayr); Sanskrit पितृ ‎(pitṛ, 'father') Tocharian A pācar, B pācer; Persian پدر ‎(pedar); Lithuanian patinas ‎('male animal').

So if cland was a cognate of Latin planta, rather than a loanword, you'd expect land as it would reflect the loss of the initial p- in Proto-Celtic, similar to athair above.

**Cf. Old W. map, Old Ir. macc; Old W. penn, Old. Ir. cenn; Old W. pedwar, Old Ir. cethair etc... .

*** Giving the tribal name Cothraige.

**** See Damien McManus, 'A Chronology of Latin Loan-words in Early Irish', Ériu 34 (1983) 21-71: http://www.jstor.org/stable/30007745?Se ... b_contents



Yep, but the Old Irish form is treb. If you are talking about the larger tribal community (polity) then there is also túath (<Proto-Celtic *towtā < Proto-Indo-European *tewtéh₂).

However, I would suggest the word moccu (maccu) meaning 'tribe', 'family'. The word is actually attested on Ogam stones***** (i.e. primitive Irish) and it is also known from the Old Irish period, where it is used in the nominative Moccu + a familial name in the genitive to denote a familial population group; e.g. *Moccu Cennfhaelaid the tribe/ family of Cennfaelad.****** In the Middle Irish period moccu becomes confused as a combination of Mac Uí[/] ... or [i]Macc Ua ... ('son of the grandson/ descendant of ...).

***** e.g. BIVAIDONAS MAQI MUCOI CUNAVA[LI] ('Bivaidonas, son of the tribe/ family Cunava[li]'): see illustration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham#Corpus

****** See DIL: http://www.dil.ie/browse?qs=moccu and John (Eoin) Mac Néill's article: 'Early Irish Population-Groups: Their Nomenclature, Classification, and Chronology' Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy 29 (1911/1912) 59-114: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25502794?Se ... b_contents

Wait for more suggestions

Cian

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