Our man in Brussels wrote:
I stumbled upon this study comparing the Irish of 10-year-olds in gaelscoils in ROI and NI, and in gaeltacht areas:
It's 131 pages and I had no intention of reading it but I just got sucked in by the commentary about:
- how many mistakes are made by kids in non-gaeltacht gealscoils (section 4.4)
- what kind of mistakes (5)
- which Irish words they use far less (acu, gcéad, mhíle, beirt) (4.3)
- which English words they use most (4.5.1)
- kids reactions when asked to spot their own mistakes (section 6 - to skim this section, just read the parallel translated dialogues)
... - "The most common errors of the immersion pupils’ were; [1] the use of the substantive verb Bí instead of the copula Is for classificatory purposes, [2] difficulties with the use of dependent form of all verbs and the irregular verbs in particular, [3] the use of incorrect syntax with the verbal noun, [4] difficulties with numbers and interrogative pronouns (Cad/Céard/Cad é ‘What’) incorrectly used, [5] a tendency to map English syntax onto Irish." (8.2.4)
Not surprising, the tendency to map English syntax onto Irish is wrought in Urban Irish, as well as the language-learner's phenomenon of using the closest English phoneme instead of the native Irish one, e.g. k for ch /x/, unilaterally replacing the Irish r's with the English r. The same difficulties in morphology, syntax and pronunciation among Irish learners is found in the following studies for example:
Our Own Language: An Irish Initiative by Gabrielle Maguire (Nig Uidhir); describes the phenomenon of Urban Irish in Belfast and how it diverges from traditional Gaeltacht Irish:
https://books.google.ie/books/about/Our ... edir_esc=y (specifically chapters 13
Linguistic Trends in the Irish of Community Children and the conclusion; 186-229)
Irish in Primary Schools: Long-Term National Trends in Achievement by John Harris et al:
A study comparing,
viz-à-viz-à-viz, the Irish of Gaeltacht, Irish-medium and English-medium primary schools utilising the pillars of the communicative approach, i.e. speaking, listening, writing and reading skills, against the same criteria, which was carried out in 1985 in order to discover trends in Irish language acquisition (and the story isn't good for any of the schools, but worse for both Irish- and - English medium schools)- This damning report was basically ignored and buried!:
http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie/assets/Iri ... chools.pdf (especially: chp. 8, 156-185)
And in the Adult context:
New Urban Irish: Pidgin, Creole, or Bona Fide Dialect? The Phonetics and Morphology of City and Gaeltacht Speakers Systematically Compared by Brian Ó Broin (the only person really going about the study of Urban Irish in a academic way, besides Gabrielle Nig Uidhir); where he compared the Irish as spoken by radio presenters on Gaeltacht radio with the Irish as spoken by presenters on Irish-medium city radio stations (chatshow hosts and news presenters). If, the Gaeltacht radio hosts are taken to be representative of native speakers and Irish-medium City radio hosts speakers are representative of Urban-Gaelscoil speakers (obviously, the sample size was much too small to conclude indefinitely), the urban speakers, on average, made less than 50% of the morphological and pronunciation changes expected, compared to the 90% of the Gaeltacht radio hosts. Even when the variable for general language mistakes are taken into account by both sets of speakers, there consists a considerable gap between the two.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... y_ComparedHere's a youtube version of the study (its a bit all over the place, skip ahead to the relevant bits):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E-K9-GCJOk Our man in Brussels wrote:
"If deviant forms are automatised, they can be difficult to modify particularly if they serve a communicative function and do not lead to a breakdown in communication. These forms can become the norm for peer-to-peer interaction and, when habitually practiced, can lead to permanency." (8.2.2)This finding was also echoed by Gabrielle Nig Uidhir above, where she further points out that these 'deviant' forms in pronunciation and grammar, often calques and phonemes borrowed from English, come to be seen as 'dialectal features' by the community of language learners who use them. Which would make sense if they were native speakers of language (A) in the first place, who due to being cut off from the rest of the language (A) speaking community, develop independent forms or else borrow forms from a neighbouring language over a
long period of time, i.e. a dialect, which over further time, eventually becomes an intelligible 'new' language.
Sadly, this isn't the case with the vast majority of Gaelscoil pupils, or 'native' Irish speakers who learned their language from parents/grandparents who were learners, because for the simple reason: the learner is a native speaker of language (B), acquires language (A), but naturally finds it difficult to master features of language (A) that are alien to their native (B) language (e.g. differentiation between broad and slender consonants, the use of 'do' when the genitive would be more natural etc...).
Furthermore, the native speakers of language (B), bring to language (A), facets of grammar and pronunciation of his native (B) language, which in turn creates calques and mispronunciations (e.g. Tá sé ag bualadh mé, instead of Tá sé ám (ag mo) bhualadh; pronouncing
c(h) as
k, English -r, as suppose to the number of Irish -r's etc...).
This language does not meet the requirement of a dialect because these aren't natural isoglossic changes to the language, they are instead inspired by language switch-over and in the vast majority of cases are the result of language (B), English, influence on language (A), Irish.
Lastly, and worryingly, the only real point of language reference these learners have is, language (A) as spoken by the community of native language (B) speakers, whether that be in a school environment or wider community as in the case of the Belfast Urban Gaeltacht. This community will inevitably make the same mistakes and have the same 'deviant' forms; and therefore, these 'deviant' forms are reinforced and interpreted as dialectal features and eventually become embedded in the Urban language. However, the language of that community is known as a pidgin, or semi-Creole language, since the 'deviant' forms did not occur naturally within the language itself over a prolonged period of time.
Now, that's not to say, the same thing isn't happening in Gaeltachts, it is but at a slower pace. Mainly because parents fail to speak native Irish in the home and thus do not pass it onto their children; instead these children learn Irish in school, off of non-native speakers. Alternatively and/ or additionally, native Irish speakers are also bilingual, given how common English is, native speakers will often become more proficient in English than in Irish, leading them to be more comfortable communicating in English; which inevitably impacts the Irish they speak. And thus, the native idiom of the district is gradually lost.
"as regard the statement: deviant forms can be "difficult to modify particularly if they serve a communicative function and do not lead to a breakdown in communication"
This would suggest that Irish needs to be thought correctly the first time around, to prevent deviant forms becoming cemented, which is pretty worrying given the fact that the standard of Irish among Irish primary school teachers' is quite poor and is apparently deteriorating:
Inspectorate Evaluation Studies,
Irish in Primary School (though mostly referring to English-medium schools)
http://www.education.ie/en/Publications ... 08_pdf.pdf (particularly chps 2.5, 2.6. 2.7, 15-19)
Here are some quotes:
"...colleges of education were unhappy with the standard of Irish of most students on entry to teacher education programs” (Inspectorate, pg. 16, 2007). “It is worrying to note, however, that almost a quarter of teachers were found to have weaknesses in their own language competency and 9% of teachers had significant deficiencies in their ability to teach Irish” (Inspectorate, pg. 71, 2007). “It is a cause for concern that in almost one-third of classrooms,
the pupils were taught Irish through the medium of the English language. These pupils had few opportunities to experience Irish being spoken as a living language”. And 25% of primary school teachers would assess their own Irish as “Weak second language speaker” (Harris et al, 2006, pg. 128)
Furthermore, this statement also has ramifications on learners who wish to learn dialectic Irish and who are often told: learn the standard first before embarking on learning the dialect they wish to study. But the aforementioned statement suggests that it can be more difficult to swap dialectal features once standard ones have been digested and assimilated.
But unfortunately, it is impossible to buy learning materials in dialectal Irish anymore.
Whereas, standard Irish materials are easy to come by, e.g. Buntús Cainte
And it is even very easy to find materials, that may be grammatically correct according to the standard, but have Urban Irish pronunciation (doesn't distinguish broad and palatal consonants, English
k for Irish
ch /x/.)
Our man in Brussels wrote:
Among their closing recommendations: "Irish-medium pupils interpret the school norm of speaking Irish as ‘not using English words’. This interpretation may be sufficient in the early years of immersion until pupils gain basic interpersonal communication skills in Irish. Once this has been achieved the emphasis needs to shift to affirming pupils, not only for speaking Irish, but also for the quality of their Irish." (8.3.1.2)yep, the idea of frowning upon using simple loanwords seems to be the general attitude of the Athbheochaint (Athbheochan) movement- schools, etc..., but funny enough, the Irish spoken by the Athbheochaint speakers themselves is usually heavily saturated with English syntax and mispronunciation. Here's a link to a discussion about calques and code-switching etc... (not that I'm an expert!, just giving my opinions on things I've read)
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=3740&hilit=calquesI remember, at the time of writing this, there was a complaint on Gaeilge Amháin, made by someone who overheard a speaker use kitchen, or
fón instead of
cistin, or
guthán; but to understand the speaker in question's complaint I had to translate what he was saying into English first, because his Irish was so encrypted with English syntax. I remember laughing to myself about it at the time.
Our man in Brussels wrote:
I read a lot about the quality of French education here in Brussels and one common complaint by parents is that kids' spelling isn't as good as back in their day. It's true that a modern 10-year-old makes more mistakes in written French than one of times gone by, but what's actually happening is that the perfecting of people's spelling is just happening later in their school career.
Were these native French speakers?
Spelling doesn't really have anything to do with language proficiency per se, since spelling is just the orthographic representation of the spoken language and especially if the speakers in question are native; for instance, a speaker may be a woeful speller, but his/ her syntax and pronunciation may be as competent as any speaker of the same age at any time period, relevant to the language of their day of course. The same is true for native English and Irish speakers. Funny enough, language learners tend to have better spelling skills than natives do, for some reason
Our man in Brussels wrote:
Education has long been moving away from rote learning (which is great for learning spelling) and toward problem solving (where language is a tool rather than the goal).
I agree, this is an extremely important change, rote learning tends to cultivate one-dimensional thinking and anti-intellectualism, where people tend to believe everything they hear and read, just because its on the news etc... which means government, and/ or government parties (shall we say anymore?) can brainwash people so easily. I believe anti-intellectualism is the biggest threat facing the modern world today.
Whereas, teaching problem solving skills etc... tends to create critical thinkers!
Our man in Brussels wrote:
This study doesn't tell us (because that wasn't the study's aim) whether gaelscoil students eventually get to a level similar to gaeltach students.
Well, taking Brian Ó Broin's study as an example, if we take the city radio hosts - who are either native urban speakers or come from Gaelscoil education - as being indicative of the urban Irish speaking community as a whole,* and combine that with Nig Uidhir's conclusion, that speakers see many of the 'divergent' forms they have as dialectal features of their community; the answer is no, unfortunately.
*not definitive, since the sample size is too small!
Our man in Brussels wrote:
Now, I can see some people here concluding that this study confirms that gaelscoil Irish speakers are not "real" Irish speakers, but I think that would be rash.
Now, contrary to the cold, academic and pessimistic argument I have put forward
, I am not
ag caitheamh anuas/ aduas on Urban Irish speakers, I think they should be applauded for their efforts and many native Irish speakers would do well from following in their example and actually speaking Irish with their children. I am not exactly a language purist either, in the sense that I don't see the caighdeán as the 'correct' form of the language, in my opinion - whatever that's worth - all native Irish is correct (how can someone tell speakers such as Maidhc Dháith, Amhlaoibh Ó loinsigh etc... that their Irish is wrong
). I think one of the major barriers to Irish being spoken, is that people often feel judged when they speak Irish and this needs to be eradicated; people aren't going to get better at speaking Irish unless they speak it. The community of Urban language speakers should be encouraged and given any help necessary, I for one am fully behind them. Of course, Gaeltacht speakers should be afforded the same help.
However, I think we need to recognise the difficulties facing Irish from a morphological, syntactical and pronunciation point of view and face them head on, rather than just pretending they don't exist!
Urban speakers need to acknowledge that in the majority of cases (sadly, very true), the Irish they speak is wrought with mispronunciation, i.e. replacing Irish phonemes with the nearest English one. We are in serious danger of actually losing Irish phonemes because students aren't taught them in the first place and teachers themselves don't know them either.
And secondly, to inform people and children in Gaelscoils that the Irish they learn in school is not dialectal Irish, but is instead standard Irish and not indicative of the language once spoken in their area (now, they may learn token dialectal features, but certainly not dialectal Irish)
Furthermore, people need to be challenged in the view that the 'deviant' (e.g. Tá sé ag bualadh mé) forms that they used in the Gaelscoileanna are not dialectal, so when they meet the correct expression they don't automatically assume that it's (A) incorrect, or (B) a different dialectal form.
The same needs to be said of Gaeltacht speakers, who often see different dialectal forms as incorrect, but in the case of the dialectal feature, 'their' form will usually not be 'deviant' and will probably be consistent with native Irish and not a calque; if it is a calque, it is usually quite an old one.
Cian
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