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PostPosted: Sun 23 Oct 2011 9:19 am 
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I'm trying to get my head round the way the particle 'á' works - and the more I look at the examples I find, the more I'm confused. - On Pota Focal under the heading 'úsáid' there's - á úsáid - and further down it's - á n-úsáid (being used) and after that there's - atá á n-úsáid (which are being used).
In the Collins Pocket Irish Dictionary it's given as -
á - possessive adjective (as the object of a verbal noun him; her; them; á bualadh - hitting her; á bhualadh - hitting him; á mbualadh - hitting them.
Au secours!


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PostPosted: Sun 23 Oct 2011 9:57 am 
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I'm probably totally wrong here, but the way it was explained to me (by my granny) was that
á = ag + a and you use it with the verbal noun because what you're saying isn't exactly the same as what you say in English:
Example:
Táim ag déanamh na hoibre. This isn't "I'm doing the work", but "I'm at the work's doing".
So when you want to say "I'm doing it", you have to say "I'm at its doing", hence:
Táim ag a dhéanamh.

However ag + a combine into á, so you have:
Táim á dhéanamh

If you wanted to say "I'm hitting them", you have to say "I'm at their hitting":
Táim ag a mbualadh => Táim á mbualadh.


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PostPosted: Sun 23 Oct 2011 11:47 am 
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That's it.

The mutations that follow the á depends on the gender of the noun and on its number (singular or plural):

Tá sé a' mo bhualadh
Tá sé a' do bhualadh
Tá sé á bhualadh (=him/it with a masculine noun)
Tá sé á bualadh (=her/it with a feminine noun)

Tá sé 'ár mbualadh
Tá sé 'mur mbualadh
Tá sé á mbualadh

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PostPosted: Sun 23 Oct 2011 10:26 pm 
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Quote:
Tá sé a' mo bhualadh
Tá sé a' do bhualadh
Tá sé á bhualadh (=him/it with a masculine noun)
Tá sé á bualadh (=her/it with a feminine noun)
Tá sé 'ár mbualadh
Tá sé 'mur mbualadh
Tá sé á mbualadh


Is that a dialectical variant of the following, which I was taught, or is there a difference in meaning:

Tá sé do mo bhualadh
Tá sé do do bhualadh
Tá sé á bhualadh (=him/it with a masculine noun)
Tá sé á bualadh (=her/it with a feminine noun)
Tá sé dár mbualadh
Tá sé do bhur mbualadh
Tá sé á mbualadh

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PostPosted: Mon 24 Oct 2011 12:39 am 
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I wrote what people say in Donegal ; what you wrote is office Ir... ahem, standard Irish :)

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Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Oct 2011 12:56 am 
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Ó Siadhail gives a similar explanation to yours for Connemara Irish, a Chaoimhín:

do mo bhualadh /gə mə/
do do bhualadh /gə də/
dhá bhualadh /γɑ:/
dhá bualadh /γɑ:/
dhár mbualadh /γɑ:/
dho'ur mbualadh /γɑ:/
dhá mbualadh /γɑ:/

From this it can be seen that á is actually reduced from dhá = do + a, rather than from ag + a*, even though the latter is what it appears to replace grammatically.

It may help (or at least not hurt) to think of this as ag + a, but isn't the do + a derivation based on historical forms? It would seem a rather strange thing to make up otherwise! :LOL:

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WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Mon 24 Oct 2011 6:48 am 
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What I find strange is that I can't find 'á' in any of the grammar books that I have. I've been looking for some examples of how it is used.


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PostPosted: Mon 24 Oct 2011 2:04 pm 
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In Munster the forms are:
Tá sé am bhualadh
Tá sé ad bhualadh
Tá sé á bhualadh
Tá sé á bualadh
Tá sé ár mbualadh
Tá sé bhur mbualadh
Tá sé á mbualadh

I think, at least from the first ones, it's ag+a.

Although I do remember reading somewhere that there was some kind of
confusion about this, maybe in Bourke's grammar.


Last edited by Breandán on Mon 24 Oct 2011 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fixed a typo, as mentioned below.


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PostPosted: Mon 24 Oct 2011 9:16 pm 
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Quote:
What I find strange is that I can't find 'á' in any of the grammar books that I have. I've been looking for some examples of how it is used.


Maybe it's "dá" in standard Irish then (instead of the á). I can't find my 'New Irish grammar'...

Lon Dubh > the last one must be "á mbualadh" - you put a séimhiú there.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
:)


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PostPosted: Mon 24 Oct 2011 9:59 pm 
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Quote:
Lon Dubh > the last one must be "á mbualadh" - you put a séimhiú there.

Ah!, thanks Lughaidh. :D


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