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PostPosted: Mon 17 Nov 2014 9:53 am 
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Since a lot of nonsense is out there, I thought I would start a tread for to list incorrect ideas and explain why they are wrong. I'd like people to add their own points so we can have a big list

In no particular order:

Irish is an ancient language -As an Indo-European language, it's the same age as English, Italian, Albanian etc. Notions of 'ancientness' may have more to do with 'Celtic' ideas than anything else

Irish is dying because it doesn't borrow as much as English -English only borrows at the lexical level, and even then, very little as most of the borrowings were due to a) words from written but not generally spoken Latin and French in the middle English period, b) words from trade in the British Empire period and c) scientific neologisms. In contemporary speech, you hear no calques from foreign languages among native speakers

Irish needs to be simplified to be saved - While there might be a limit to how complex a language could be for humans, generally, native speakers do a very good job of learning for they need the language for practical purposes. A very simplified Irish might work as a code for cultural events and a marker of Irish identity, but it might never develop, being only an auxiliary device used in rather narrow circumstances and even then, those who were not interested wouldn't learn it anyway

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Last edited by Jay Bee on Mon 17 Nov 2014 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon 17 Nov 2014 9:55 am 
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Irish is pointless and a waste of time -it might not be economically useful for most people, but it does given access to people across all social strata and can be mentally enriching. Sweets and X-Factor might feel good but are not so good for you, but people fill themselves with them anyway! (immediately pointless, later value vs. immediately 'pointful', later valueless?)

Mono-lingual English is the key to Ireland's success -worst broadband in Europe (policy), large parts of the country have no mains drinking water (slurry) and has a high degree of both public and private debt (prior political largesse; boom scenario). It's easy to find examples of generally better or worse countries, regardless of language

Peig Sayers killed the Irish language -Ireland had already completed the shift to mono-lingual English before she was born and across most of the island. She was born, raised, and lived on an island, was Irish-speaking and was from Kerry, a disadvantaged county. her husband also died before her, as far as I know. She had no impact on anything

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PostPosted: Mon 17 Nov 2014 9:55 am 
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Irish is inherently inferior to English and other 'modern languages' -'inherent inferiority' is a value judgement. Some have more words for classifying people (Irish), scientific ideas (English), color shades (Korean), evidentiality (many languages indigenous to the Americas), or are more inflexional (Finnish) or have lots of sounds (Taa), but such things are down to historical developments and can themselves change, 'up' or 'down'

Irish lost ground because of its inherently inferior nature -English pre-eminence in economic and administrative circles, a foreign elite, genocide, removal, interruption of social networks, plantation, impoverishment, isolation of those who 'turned native', Act of Union, national school system, assisted famine, relentless emigration, official neglect... It's only due to a) isolation and b) seafood, fish and seaweed it exists at all

English took over, world-wide, because of its flexibility -it has been a trade language in northern europe for centuries, spread over 3 continents due to British colonialism and went worldwide due to American pre-eminence in the spheres of economics, science and pop-culture during the 20th century

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PostPosted: Mon 17 Nov 2014 5:19 pm 
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Irish has no curse words
Traditionally, as far as we know no, but Conemara has (gabh suas ort héin, anyone?), and their lack may have been due to general discourse styles and cultural mores in more recent Irish history. It's hard to believe no 'bad language' was used among travelers in the old Cant and Gammon. And for all we know, people swore like troupers in the 12th century

Irish is a bogger language
Native Irish speakers are noticeably less boggerish, being generally better read. This may be a consequence of having to operate in two languages or a reflex of the traditionally high status afforded to learning in Gaelic culture, but even if one looks as radio discourse modes on RnaG, you will notice how much longer are the periods allotted to turns for each speaker as compared to English radio, the much higher tone of conversations and the lack of constant ideological bias you get on other government staions

Irish is not a practical language
It's not of practical use where it is not spoken, but this does not mean it is somehow whimsical, or 'mystical' or other-worldly where it is spoken. It's a practical vehicle of expression like most languages for action, information and expressing emotions

Irish has no 'yes' and 'no' so Irish people are not capable of giving a straight answer!
Old Irish had them, and people often use sea/ní hea as equivalents, but the reason they were not used for a long time most likely came done to simple typology -if a language is verb first (as Irish is), then if one is asked a question, and since verbs carry a lot of information, it is likely the verb or some variant in form could be given instead. Not answering questions directly might be down to the need to hedge one's position in the socially ambiguous world of the Penal Law and British Union days where strong opinions would have little survival value amongst the lower classes

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PostPosted: Mon 17 Nov 2014 6:28 pm 
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Irish is our native language
There is a difference between the historically native language of an ethnic group and the personal native language of a speaker. A good example would be 2nd or 3rd generation ethnic Americans. Irish as 'our native language' is more spiel than fact

The Irish accent comes from Irish, thus Irish is pronounced like English
While Irish may have lent its intonation to HE and perhaps its much of its vowel quality, English spread mostly from the English settled and Anglicised east coast. The English in Ireland largely came from the parts of England (South, Midlands and West Country) that once spoke more like the stage pirate. In one sense, the Irish accent is Gaelic speakers imitating Shakesphere and doing it very well. Besides, Irish and English diverge first on articulation and then even more in the sounds each language considers important for communication, so HE cannot physically or cognitively act as a replacement for Irish in that respect

Hiberno-English is Irish with English on top
While constructions such as 'I'm after eating my dinner' may parallel táim tar éis mo dhinnéar a ithe, such 'survival' are not unusual in a contact scenario such as how English came to be the main language in Ireland, must such contact patterns are long gone thanks to the Church, the school system and mass media, and the majority of them would have been relinquished even in the 19th century

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PostPosted: Wed 19 Nov 2014 10:07 am 
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"Yes" and "no"... I also point out how the most universally revered "sophisticated" language of all time, Latin, has the same feature.

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PostPosted: Wed 19 Nov 2014 11:37 pm 
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Quote:
Irish is our native language
There is a difference between the historically native language of an ethnic group and the personal native language of a speaker. A good example would be 2nd or 3rd generation ethnic Americans. Irish as 'our native language' is more spiel than fact

The Irish accent comes from Irish, thus Irish is pronounced like English
While Irish may have lent its intonation to HE and perhaps its much of its vowel quality, English spread mostly from the English settled and Anglicised east coast. The English in Ireland largely came from the parts of England (South, Midlands and West Country) that once spoke more like the stage pirate. In one sense, the Irish accent is Gaelic speakers imitating Shakesphere and doing it very well. Besides, Irish and English diverge first on articulation and then even more in the sounds each language considers important for communication, so HE cannot physically or cognitively act as a replacement for Irish in that respect


thanks for saying that. These should be taught again and again in the Irish schools until it goes into the Irish people's heads...

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PostPosted: Thu 20 Nov 2014 2:50 am 
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Jay Bee wrote:
Irish is our native language
There is a difference between the historically native language of an ethnic group and the personal native language of a speaker. A good example would be 2nd or 3rd generation ethnic Americans. Irish as 'our native language' is more spiel than fact

I dropped my hand done portrait of Dev at this shocking paragraph. I've reported you to a dissidents observation group. We'll have you up and back to playin' hurling in no time.

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PostPosted: Sun 23 Nov 2014 12:37 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
Jay Bee wrote:
Irish is our native language
There is a difference between the historically native language of an ethnic group and the personal native language of a speaker. A good example would be 2nd or 3rd generation ethnic Americans. Irish as 'our native language' is more spiel than fact

I dropped my hand done portrait of Dev at this shocking paragraph. I've reported you to a dissidents observation group. We'll have you up and back to playin' hurling in no time.


Dev was a sell out, i spend my Sundays doing hand drawn portraits of the Big fella himself.

Ive often wondered if English is as native a language to Ireland as it is to England? For when the Normans first landed here, English as we know it had not yet developed , and with them came Anglo-norman speakers, old English speakers ,and Flemish speakers , (Yola and Fingalian) ,and Welsh speakers, so a similar linguistic mix to what produced the English language.

I cant for the life of me find any references to when English itself was first officially spoken here, of course a lot of these speakers would have changed to Gaelic which can be attested from the numerous accounts of Lords and preachers complaining that their subjects/flock needed to be communicated with through Irish despite being of settler stock.

But given languages like Yola survived until the 18th century, it would be unreasonable to think any early forms of English developed on the island could also have survived and contributed to the creation of Hiberno English

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