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 Post subject: Tá v. Bí
PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 4:37 pm 
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Both of these mean to be, correct?

E.g...

An bhfuil sí ina codladh?
Is she in sleep?

Tá sí ina codladh.
Is she in sleep.

Is there a general rule on using bí or using tá? I see the former a lot in questions and the latter a lot in statements.


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 Post subject: Re: Tá v. Bí
PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 4:59 pm 
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The Merry Ploughboy wrote:
Both of these mean to be, correct?

E.g...

An bhfuil sí ina codladh?
Is she in sleep?

Tá sí ina codladh.
Is she in sleep.

Is there a general rule on using bí or using tá? I see the former a lot in questions and the latter a lot in statements.


I'm a bit confused by your question here. "Tá" and "bí" are the same verb. "Tá" is the present indicative form. "Bí" is the root form, which is also the singular imperative.

"Bhfuil" is the present dependent form of the same verb. It's used, as you have above, when asking questions, among other things.

In your examples above, the first one says "Is she asleep?" and the second says "She is asleep." Remember, in a simple sentence in Irish, the verb comes first, whether you're making a statement or asking a question. When you translate it to English, you'd move the verb to where it would normally occur in English, when making a statement, is after the subject.

Does that help?

Redwolf


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 Post subject: Re: Tá v. Bí
PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 5:16 pm 
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Actually, for me, it's easier not to move anything. I'm comfortable with the statement 'is she asleep' as meaning 'she is asleep.'

"Tá" is the present indicative form. "Bí" is the root form, which is also the singular imperative.@

Frankly, I don't know what this means as I am not a linguist. I also dont know what a present dependent form is, but I can have a look and figure it out. thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Tá v. Bí
PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 5:32 pm 
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The Merry Ploughboy wrote:
I also dont know what a present dependent form is, but I can have a look and figure it out. thanks.


Independent: tá or bí etc

Dependent: bhfuil etc


The dependent form arose AFIK during the transition to Old Irish when the VSO order became more normal yet there was a need to make negatives so 'Ní' etc got put before the verb and this changed the rhythm of the utterance compared to the positive one, changing stress patterns,all the while, whole syllables in the middle of words were dropping out, so you ended up with contrasting pairs like chuaigh/ní dheachaigh; chonaic/ní fhaca; rinne/ní dhearna etc coming from what was once the same original verb.

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 Post subject: Re: Tá v. Bí
PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 5:36 pm 
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To answer your question, bí and bhfuil are not the same in the way I think you are asking. Bhfuil is the dependent form of . changes regularly to bhí, mbíonn etc as needs be.

I think most verbs had both independent and dependent forms once, but the system regularized and today there are only a few relics left

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 Post subject: Re: Tá v. Bí
PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 5:45 pm 
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did you mean tá and bíonn?


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 Post subject: Re: Tá v. Bí
PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 6:00 pm 
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I repeat: "Tá" and "Bí" are the same verb. To break it down:

Bí = root form (i.e., the form under which you would find all of these in the dictionary, also known as the "name" of the verb) and singular imperative:

Bí ciúin! "Be quiet" (said to one person)

Tá = present indicative form of the verb "bí." In other words, the form of "bí" you use to make a statement in the present tense:

Tá sí ciúin. "She is quiet"

An bhfuil = Present tense dependent form of the verb "bí," with the interrogative particle "an." In other words, the form of "bí" you use to ask a question in the present tense:

An bhfuil sí ciúin? "Is she quiet?"

(answer: "Tá" or "Níl")

Bhí = past indicative form of the verb "bí." In other words, the form of "bí" you use to make a statement in the past tense:

Bhí sí ciúin. "She was quiet."

An raibh = Past tense dependent form of the verb "bí," with the interrogative particle "an" In other words, the form of "bí" you use to ask a question in the past tense:

An raibh sí ciúin? "Was she quiet?"

(answer: "Bhí" or "Ní raibh")

Does that sort it out a bit better?

Redwolf

P.S.: Since Catrionanic asked about "bíonn":

Bíonn = the present habitual form of the verb "bí." In other words, the form of "bí" you use to make a statement about something that happens habitually.

Bíonn seisiún cheol anseo gach Aoine There is ("does be") a music session here every Friday.

The bottom line is, ALL of these are forms of the verb "bí."


Last edited by Redwolf on Sat 28 Dec 2013 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tá v. Bí
PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 6:24 pm 
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Redwolf wrote:
I repeat: "Tá" and "Bí" are the same verb. To break it down:

Bí = root form (i.e., the form under which you would find all of these in the dictionary, also known as the "name" of the verb) and singular imperative:

Bí ciúin! "Be quiet" (said to one person)

Tá = present indicative form of the verb "bí." In other words, the form of "bí" you use to make a statement in the present tense:

Tá sí ciúin. "She is quiet"

An bhfuil = Present tense dependent form of the verb "bí," with the interrogative particle "an." In other words, the form of "bí" you use to ask a question in the present tense:

An bhfuil sí ciúin? "Is she quiet?"

(answer: "Tá" or "Níl")

Bhí = past indicative form of the verb "bí." In other words, the form of "bí" you use to make a statement in the past tense:

Bhí sí ciúin. "She was quiet."

An raibh = Past tense dependent form of the verb "bí," with the interrogative particle "an" In other words, the form of "bí" you use to ask a question in the past tense:

An raibh sí ciúin? "Was she quiet?"

(answer: "Bhí" or "Ní raibh")

Does that sort it out a bit better?

Redwolf

P.S.: Since Catrioniac asked about "bíonn":

Bíonn = the present habitual form of the verb "bí." In other words, the form of "bí" you use to make a statement about something that happens habitually.

Bíonn seisiún cheol anseo gach Aoine There is ("does be") a music session here every Friday.

The bottom line is, ALL of these are forms of the verb "bí."


yes; this sorts it out a bit better. thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Tá v. Bí
PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 10:54 pm 
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The easiest way to think about this (well, for me anyway) is to think of bhfuil and fuil being used with question words in the present tense. There's really no need to worry about high-falutin' talk like dependent interrogative particles; your goal is, after all, to learn the Irish language, not linguistic jargon in English.


Last edited by WeeFalorieMan on Sun 29 Dec 2013 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tá v. Bí
PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 11:34 pm 
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WeeFalorieMan wrote:
The easiest way to think about this (well, for me anyway) is to think of bhfuil and fuil as question words in the present tense. There's really no need to worry about high-falutin' talk like dependent interrogative particles; your goal is, after all, to learn the Irish language, not linguistic jargon in English.


There's no harm in learning that "liguistic jargon" either, especially as you WILL encounter it in learning materials.

In any case, I think my examples made things clear. My point was that these are all the same verb...one that happens to be highly irregular.

Redwolf


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