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 Post subject: Re: Indirect Clauses
PostPosted: Tue 18 Jun 2013 7:44 pm 
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Quote:
How is "gur" or "go" Béarlachas exactly ,


because in English you have "that" to translate both "a" and "go/gur"... I think

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 Post subject: Re: Indirect Clauses
PostPosted: Tue 18 Jun 2013 9:58 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Seidh agus thig leat seo a ráidht fosta

"ba mhaith liom tú í a phósadh" = I would like you to marry her.

Ana-shuimiúil, a Lughaidh. :good:

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 Post subject: Re: Indirect Clauses
PostPosted: Tue 18 Jun 2013 10:51 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
How is "gur" or "go" Béarlachas exactly ,


because in English you have "that" to translate both "a" and "go/gur"... I think


hmmm, it depends how long its been around really I suppose, nobody would consider na foirmeacha sgartha béarlachas anymore even though they were only adopted into Irish roughly 150 years ago by native speakers who might not have even spoken English themselves. Traditonal Déise Irish (such as that used by Maidhc Dháith (although I am not 100% trusting of Leabhar Mhaidhc Dháith edited by Máirtín Verling, as there has definitely been some caighdeánú carried out)) and especially up North and the areas surrounding the Commeraghs and Sliabh gCua Newcastle etc... used the mír choibhneasta "a" and "ar".

An Lon Dubh wrote:
Lughaidh wrote:
Seidh agus thig leat seo a ráidht fosta

"ba mhaith liom tú í a phósadh" = I would like you to marry her.

Ana-shuimiúil, a Lughaidh. :good:


:yes: , is that not Béarlachas itself? it kind of looks directly translated from English and the use of "ba ghnáth liom" instead of using the habitual past (I used to) or are these long attested forms? If they are Béarlachas I still kinda like them :??: :LOL:

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I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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 Post subject: Re: Indirect Clauses
PostPosted: Wed 19 Jun 2013 11:26 am 
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Quote:
hmmm, it depends how long its been around really I suppose, nobody would consider na foirmeacha sgartha béarlachas anymore even though they were only adopted into Irish roughly 150 years ago by native speakers who might not have even spoken English themselves. Traditonal Déise Irish (such as that used by Maidhc Dháith (although I am not 100% trusting of Leabhar Mhaidhc Dháith edited by Máirtín Verling, as there has definitely been some caighdeánú carried out)) and especially up North and the areas surrounding the Commeraghs and Sliabh gCua Newcastle etc... used the mír choibhneasta "a" and "ar".


the foirmeacha scartha are even older than that, they did exist in Classical Irish with the pronouns sé, sí at least, as far as I know.
Using the pronouns mé, thú, é, í etc as direct objects has happened under the influence of Old Norse (that didn't exist in Old irish, the object pronouns were infixed between a preverb and the verb itself).
One shouldn't see Anglicisms everytime something is similar in English and Irish :D

Quote:
:yes: , is that not Béarlachas itself? it kind of looks directly translated from English


in English you don't say "I would like you her to marry" :mrgreen:
If you said *Ba mhaith liom tú pósadh í" it would be a Béarlachas, but I don't think anybody would say that in Irish (I hope so)

Quote:
and the use of "ba ghnáth liom" instead of using the habitual past (I used to) or are these long attested forms? If they are Béarlachas I still kinda like them


It's not a béarlachas, "I used to" is a verb (the béarlachas would be *d'úsáid mé...) ; "ba ghnáth liom" is "it was an habit with me"... definitely not English!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Indirect Clauses
PostPosted: Wed 19 Jun 2013 2:42 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:

Quote:
:yes: , is that not Béarlachas itself? it kind of looks directly translated from English


in English you don't say "I would like you her to marry" :mrgreen:
If you said *Ba mhaith liom tú pósadh í" it would be a Béarlachas, but I don't think anybody would say that in Irish (I hope so)


It would be an impossibly high standard of proof to require that the position of the object of 'posadh' break the rules of Irish syntax and come after the verb exactly as in English for this to be judged as 'Béarlachas'. I have no idea whether it is or not and - as you say, looking similar to English doesn't necessarily mean English influence - but I wonder if any other European language uses this construction instead of a subordinate clause introduced by 'that', 'que', 'dass', etc.

Quote:
Quote:
and the use of "ba ghnáth liom" instead of using the habitual past (I used to) or are these long attested forms? If they are Béarlachas I still kinda like them


It's not a béarlachas, "I used to" is a verb (the béarlachas would be *d'úsáid mé...) ; "ba ghnáth liom" is "it was an habit with me"... definitely not English!!!


Can there be anything more "dúchasach" than 'copula+noun/adjective+le/do'?
On the other hand, Cionnfhaolach, as well as as "ba ghnáth/ghnách liom", the conditional is often used in Ulster Irish instead of the 'gnáthchaite'. Which definitely does seem to be influenced by English - though Lughaidh may well know differently.

Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
How is "gur" or "go" Béarlachas exactly?

because in English you have "that" to translate both "a" and "go/gur"... I think


Yes, that's what I was referring to - excluding Munster Irish of course, since this is your 'standard'.


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 Post subject: Re: Indirect Clauses
PostPosted: Wed 19 Jun 2013 4:55 pm 
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Errigal wrote:
but I wonder if any other European language uses this construction instead of a subordinate clause introduced by 'that', 'que', 'dass'.


Yes, Latin and Ancient Greek, as a matter of fact :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Indirect Clauses
PostPosted: Wed 19 Jun 2013 7:18 pm 
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Hallow XIII wrote:
Errigal wrote:
but I wonder if any other European language uses this construction instead of a subordinate clause introduced by 'that', 'que', 'dass'.


Yes, Latin and Ancient Greek, as a matter of fact :mrgreen:


:D Ah yes - the ould accusative and infinitive. Nua-theangacha a bheadh i gceist agam dar ndóighe...:D


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 Post subject: Re: Indirect Clauses
PostPosted: Wed 19 Jun 2013 9:23 pm 
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Quote:
the conditional is often used in Ulster Irish instead of the 'gnáthchaite'. Which definitely does seem to be influenced by English - though Lughaidh may well know differently.


yeah, not sure it comes from English, I think it's attested in Holmer's (?) book about Tory Island's Irish, which he did at a time that many people would have few English there.
Moreover, Scottish Gaelic has had the same form for conditional and past habitual for a long time, before it could be influenced by English.
Btw, most forms of the conditional and of the past habitual are almost pronounced the same way in Donegal, that's why they have merged, in my opinion:
-ainn / -fainn (the f is pronounced [h])
-thá / -fá
-adh sé / -fadh sé
-amaist (?) / -famaist (or fasmaid)
-adh sibh / -fadh sibh
-adh siad / -fadh siad.

the only difference in that conjugation is the [h] sound in the conditional... and it's not always heard (after an unvoiced consonant it isn't: ghlacainn and ghlacfainn would be pronounced the same way, as far as I know)... :)

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