If native speakers started using it consistently in speech, yes, it would then be considered correct. However, it would still be possible to note the difference between these native speakers, who most likely learned the language from non-native parents, and those who learned it in natively from native speaking parents. And, it'd even be possible to argue at that point that they are speaking a different language, a sorta Irish-English creole.

The whole issue is that you must rely on native speakers. You shouldn't rely on non-natives for what is acceptable in a language. After all, as someone has in their signature here, "A language belongs to its native speakers."

O.k. so if the child of a native speaker consistently says 'tá mé cailín', your view is that that is acceptable. That sounds very strange to me. It seems very odd to suggest that a native speaker of a language cannot use grammar/language incorrectly. I'm sorry if I have picked you up wrong on this, but I am quite intrigued about what I think you are suggesting!

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It depends on the age of the child. I mean, there is a period when they're still acquiring their language, and not quite fluent yet. However, if that child grows into a teenager or adult, and still consistently uses that structure, then, yes, it is part of their idiolect.

[quote = Saoirse]That sounds very strange to me. It seems very odd to suggest that a native speaker of a language cannot use grammar/language incorrectly. I'm sorry if I have picked you up wrong on this, but I am quite intrigued about what I think you are suggesting![/quote]

You're following fine. Certainly, a native speaker can use a different dialect, or even a different idiolect incorrectly. So it is entirely possible for someone to make mistakes when speaking the standard version of a language, since nobody grows up speaking that natively. A lot of times I hypercorrect when I try to use the "___ and I" structure, since my idiolect generally uses "me and ___" or "___ and me" However, when speaking their native lect, unless it's a performance error (such as stuttering, or a slip of the tongue, etc.), they will speak correctly, yes. And, if you listen, they'll use the structure/pronunciation/whatever consistently as well.

And, trust me, when I first started learning about linguistics, I thought that it sounded really weird as well, and it does seem odd. But it kinda starts to make sense once you stop looking at standard language, and realize that every person speaks their own idiolect. And, if they didn't speak it consistently and correctly... then what would be the point of trusting native speakers to say anything at all?


Also, it's totally possible to mess up with writing and spelling, like I said. Mainly, here, I'm just discussing speech.

If I'm not interrupting, galaxyrocker is describing the scientific reality of language. If somebody consistently uses phonetic and grammatical features in their speech then that is the language as it exists in their mind. Even those who, by everyday reasoning, speak quite poorly, still have a consistent language, they are not just making random errors. That is, they are not trying to "hit" the correct form and missing it, but instead have a consistent form in their own mind, which might be highly divergent from the standard.

This of course is entirely separate from the question of "should" they speak that way, the "is-ought" problem as it were.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

You're fine An Lon Dubh, and probably explained it a lot better than I was doing.

O.k. I get it. So the suggestion is not that just because the native with the 'individualised' grammar/structure uses it, it is o.k. for a learner to use that as a model for learning. I thought that was a little odd! Thanks to you both.

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