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PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013 9:39 pm 
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It is simpler than that, in a way: words stay unlenited after "ar" in certain set phrases. That's all. :)
If your sentences means "on a + some object or person", normally it is lenited. If the "ar" means something else than "on", then the following word may be unlenited. In set phrases, but set phrases are to be learnt by heart, but many are common and they are in the dictionaries :)

Btw, /hu:l'/ is the pronunciation of "shúil" (eye, with a lenition).

Quote:
A Lúghaidh, it is possible straightforward like that in Ulster Irish, and theoretically should be everywhere, but see IWM, paragraphs 382 and 383.


yes, it says exactly the same thing as me:
shúil is /hu:l'/
and
shiobhal (old spelling for siúl) is /x'u:l/...

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 9:53 am 
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NiallBeag wrote:
"Ar" is a funny one, and the explanations in grammar books don't seem to help much.

The Collins book I'm using says:

"It aspirates nouns when they indicate a general situation"

and it doesn't aspirate nouns when:
"...they portray general position."
"...they portray a state or condition."
"...they are related to time."

Unfortunately the examples in the book lend no real clarity to what the difference between "a general situation" and "a state or condition" is...!


What I said above addresses this. Assuming the scheme holds consistently, since the normal pattern would be AR + LEN (tá cóta ar Sheán) if he is wearing a coat then that reflects a given state of play within a physical domain.

To carry more abstract meanings (in a cognitive domain), the normal pattern is suspended ('ar meisce') to show states that could be deemed often 'non-projectable (can't be drawn or seen directly)

We see something similar in English with the pattern of preposition + noun but without any article to cover states, as in 'on point', 'in love', 'off side'. (Compare the difference in meaning with 'on a point', for example)

So you can can then say tá sé ar bord, ar bhord agus ar meisce!

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___


Last edited by Jay Bee on Fri 06 Dec 2013 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 10:59 am 
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Thanks, Jay Bee, that helps a lot.

What was throwing me was the idea of a "general position" that was without lenition, and position is very, very physically real.
It was a misleading description, as they used the examples:

Bhí an gasúr ar deireadh. The boy was at the back.
Bhí gach duine ar bord. Everybody was on board.

So in both cases, we're not talking about absolute physical properties... in the first, we're not saying that he's "located at a position (that just happens to be at the end of the queue)" but that he's last, he's behind everyone. It's more about the state than the position.
In the second, I assume we're talking about a vehicle, and again, while there's a physical location in there, it carries a lot of information about the state of the passengers and/or the vehicle beyond that.

Meanwhile, although being happy/pleased/glad is a state, you can't use lenition for:
Tá athas ar Shìle gur éirigh léi. Sile is happy that she passed.
...because Síle is a physical person, not a state. The state is "athas", and that's not preceded by "ar".

I think I've got it now.
Thanks again.

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 2:23 pm 
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It's a good point you make about 'Síle' above. She would be undergoing a real demonstratively apparently experience (even if it were just internal to her and she showed no external signs of happiness) while at the end of the queue and on a ship are not just simple states but ones that have to be assessed with respect to some scheme or pattern (on/off, front/back)

Check this out for image schemas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... sLCE#t=787

You might find it of interest

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___


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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 8:52 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
It is simpler than that, in a way: words stay unlenited after "ar" in certain set phrases. That's all. :)

That may be true, but if it is, it's a very, very, very large set of certain fixed phrases, and they follow a general rule. A rule that only applies to a closed set of words is still a rule, and rule+examples is easier to learn than examples alone....

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If you are not a good guest, you have no right to complain about receiving poor hospitality.


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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 11:27 pm 
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When there are more exceptions than words that follow the rule, it's simpler to say there's no rule :rofl:

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 11:31 pm 
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I should have said that the video starts at 3:18 and for the next two minutes explains the idea in a simple way

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___


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