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PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec 2014 5:23 pm 
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Redwolf wrote:
In this case, "Na" definitely goes in front.

Redwolf


Right. So, as I said in my earlier post, as an alternative to Beanna Beola by itself, you can put the Na in front of it, which is the equivalent of adding the word "the" in front of the English version, giving you:

Na Beanna Beola
The Peaks/Bens/Pins of Beola

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PostPosted: Wed 03 Dec 2014 9:06 pm 
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In case "Beola" is really a proper name, no article "na" is necessary.
In fact it would be actually wrong.

Beanna Beola = already the bens of Beola.

But nevertheless it is often used with the article: Na Beanna Beola.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Dec 2014 2:20 am 
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Thank you all again for the information!


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PostPosted: Fri 05 Dec 2014 9:10 am 
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Labhrás wrote:
In case "Beola" is really a proper name, no article "na" is necessary.
In fact it would be actually wrong.

Beanna Beola = already the bens of Beola.

But nevertheless it is often used with the article: Na Beanna Beola.

The "single definitive rule" strikes again.

The way to understand this rule is to stop translating with "of" to preserve the word order, and start translating with 's.

This is "beola's binns", just like I'm writing this on "Níall's computer", aka "my computer". Suddenly we can see that the single definitive rule holds in English too! The only reason so many learners struggle with it is the insistence of so many teachers to use "of" as a comparator, which is a totally different structure.

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PostPosted: Fri 05 Dec 2014 7:38 pm 
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Quote:
The only reason so many learners struggle with it is the insistence of so many teachers to use "of" as a comparator, which is a totally different structure.


The two ways of indicating possession in English ("John's pen" and "the pen of John") have caused confusion ever since Old English had to learn to deal with French syntax after the Norman conquest. The first form ("John's pen") is what sounds right to a native English speaker, especially in such a short expression, since English is at heart still a Germanic language, but the second form is very widespread, especially in longer or "higher level" expressions, because it seems more erudite to some people (especially academics). Even with shorter expressions, I'm sure others on the forum had the experience in school of having an English teacher try to explain why it should be "the roof of the house" and not "the house's roof", even though there's no logical reason to prefer one over the other. It must be a nightmare for non-native speakers to sort it all out.

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PostPosted: Fri 05 Dec 2014 10:09 pm 
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Usually I explain that in most cases only people and animals (animate objects) can possess something, otherwise you use the 'of' construction or use a noun as an adjective eg a car door, which you can't really do in French. There's the ship's funnel of course, but I try to explain that away by the idea that a ship is often considered as almost a person. But I would like to point out one thing that struck me immediately when I began learning Irish is that in Old French the way of expressing possession is very similar to Irish. In place names for example there's Bourg la Reine - Queenstown - (which I've heard English-speakers pronounce as 'burglering', mais passons), Villeneuve le Roi srl and expressions such as à la queue le leu - as does the wolf's tail - ie walking in single file just as the tail of the wolf follows its owner. One example I give of how French people try to use English (to show off) that backfires is the shop sign that used to be in a town I know, proudly announcing 'Fur's Seven' - because the lady was selling fur coats and it was at number seven in the street.
(I hope this isn't too off-topic)


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Dec 2014 5:32 pm 
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So how does this apply to Beanna Beola / Na Beanna Beola?

What is the final input? I'm confused by what you both are trying to explain


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Dec 2014 6:18 pm 
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solidrock11 wrote:
So how does this apply to Beanna Beola / Na Beanna Beola?

What is the final input? I'm confused by what you both are trying to explain


What it comes down to is you can use either. "Beanna Beola" would be equivalent to "Beola's Binns," and "Na Beanna Beola" would be more or less equivalent to "The Binns of Beola," which might sound a bit odd with a personal name in English, but which does actually work in Irish.

Do wait for others to weigh in, but that's how I'm reading it.

Redwolf


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Dec 2014 7:00 pm 
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Redwolf wrote:
solidrock11 wrote:
So how does this apply to Beanna Beola / Na Beanna Beola?

What is the final input? I'm confused by what you both are trying to explain


What it comes down to is you can use either. "Beanna Beola" would be equivalent to "Beola's Binns," and "Na Beanna Beola" would be more or less equivalent to "The Binns of Beola," which might sound a bit odd with a personal name in English, but which does actually work in Irish.


No, it doesn't work.
It'd rather be the equivalent of "Beola's the Binns" which doesn't work in English either.

Why "na" is used in this case is because it is obscured that Beola is a proper name.


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Dec 2014 9:55 pm 
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Redwolf wrote:
solidrock11 wrote:
So how does this apply to Beanna Beola / Na Beanna Beola?

What is the final input? I'm confused by what you both are trying to explain


What it comes down to is you can use either. "Beanna Beola" would be equivalent to "Beola's Binns," and "Na Beanna Beola" would be more or less equivalent to "The Binns of Beola," which might sound a bit odd with a personal name in English, but which does actually work in Irish.

Do wait for others to weigh in, but that's how I'm reading it.

Redwolf

"Na Beanna Binns" would actually be "the Beola Binns" if anything, I suppose, but I'm inclined to assume it's just modern "translationese".

I reckon "Beanna Beola" is best, as it at least uncontroversial.

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