From Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne:



From Notes on Irish Words and Usages:



Are these two views contrasting, or is Ó Sé simply stating that é seo, etc. is used more often generally, as opposed to just being used when carrying the meaning of a more broad sense?

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I'm an intermediate speaker of the Corca Dhuibhne dialect of Irish and also have knowledge on the old spelling
Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar

Are you sure fuirmeacha scartha refers to "é seo" and not to "so"? What page is Ó Sé's comment on? You could ask him in an email? His English-language version of Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne has been on the verge of coming out for more than a decade. In practice, I don't think we should expect it in our lifetimes.

Isn't Ua Laoghaire by definition right? He outranks all the teachers of the CO today, right?

I wouldn't necessarily say that Ó Laoghaire outranks Ó Sé, as both 'studies' (even though Ó Laoghaire's works aren't really studies) reflect traditional forms of the spoken language outside of the CO. There are also many other things to keep in mind when comparing the two, such as the fact that both come from (or in Ó Sé's case, illustrate the study of) completely different places, from different time periods. There are many differences between the Irish of Ó Laoghaire and, say, Peig Sayers as a result of this, such as slender nn being pronounced as /ŋ´/ vs /n´/, or the use or lack of the dative plural. I just wanted to see if a comparison could be made between the use of the pronouns in both dialects.

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I'm an intermediate speaker of the Corca Dhuibhne dialect of Irish and also have knowledge on the old spelling
Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar

Yes, the quote is on page 377, section 723. He also wrote:

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I'm an intermediate speaker of the Corca Dhuibhne dialect of Irish and also have knowledge on the old spelling
Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar

I think the second excerpt risks being unnecessarily confusing. Firstly the demonstratives are the forms seo, sin and siúd, not é seo, é sin and é siúd, meanwhile, é is the third singular independent personal pronoun. Granted, the demonstratives work with pronouns to produce the demonstrative effect, "this", "that there", "that yonder", but in dialects other than Munster Irish the same demonstrative forms would be used in all cases, e.g. is olc sin uait-se.

Putting aside semantics, though, I think the description still conflates what is going on grammatically with some distinction between the spelling variants of the demonstratives. What he's actually discussing here seems to be the nuanced distinction in meaning between using a personal pronoun with the demonstratives versus using the demonstratives on their own. However, because of the fluctuation between broad and slender demonstrative forms in Munster dialects, it makes it sound like he's saying that the spelling variants seo, sin, siúd are used to point out things which are not "taken in a body, or collectively", when in fact this is just the semantic function of combining an independent personal pronoun with a demonstrative, as in é seo, é sin and é siúd.

The way this was explained to me by speakers I lived with in Baile an Fheirtéaraigh and An Fheothanach is that in Munster dialects the demonstrative pronouns are broad (so, san, súd) following a broad final vowel or consonant in the preceding word, and slender (seo, sin, siúd) following a slender vowel or consonant. So you could equally get something like is toradh an oilc sin uait-se where sin fulfils the exact same function as san in the example is olc san uait-se. I'm sure there may well be more nuance to their varied usage than just this (Incidentally, I think this might be the basis of a little word play in is fairsinge é seo ná so), but as far as I can tell, the distinction that's being made here in the second excerpt is just that between using pronouns with demonstratives versus demonstratives on their own, not a distinction in meaning between the spelling variants of demonstratives themselves.

I think you're getting the difference between demonstrative pronouns and demonstrative adjectives confused. Seo, sin, siúd are used to modify nouns (e.g. a' madadh rua so), whereas sé seo, sé sin, sé siúd (or so, san, súd) are pronouns in and of themselves that don't modify another noun (rather, they are the antecedent), e.g. 'sé seo mo mhótar. While the demonstratives are derived from a pronoun + seo/sin/siúd, they are now seen as a single unit. When so, san, súd are used as demonstratives (as opposed to é seo, é sin, é siúd), the s is always broad. Both Ó Sé and Ó Laoghaire provide examples of this.

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I'm an intermediate speaker of the Corca Dhuibhne dialect of Irish and also have knowledge on the old spelling
Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar

I'm happy to just use the term "demonstratives" instead of demonstrative pronouns when referring to seo, sin, siúd, so, san or súd. I'm happy also to consider them demonstrative adjectives where they follow a noun and modify it. "Demonstrative pronoun", I think, is a misnomer many of us were taught in school, possibly by analogy to English. But the fact is that é seo, é sin and é siúd cannot be demonstrative pronouns in and of themselves, because they are multi-word expressions. They can be seen as a single unit only insofar as that unit is comparable to a single lexeme in another language, but that would be to attempt to explain Irish grammar through the lens of that other language.

I think most modern grammarians shy away from calling space-separated words individual units, or applying a single part of speech to them. Nollaig Mac Congáil, for example, just uses the term "demonstratives", and describes how "They are used with the 3rd sg./pl. object and subject pronouns (s)é, (s)í, (s)iad" (p. 112). Granted he is not writing about Munster Irish specifically, but this aspect of the language isn't divergent in other dialects anyhow. The divergent aspect is the use of the broad forms sa, san and súd, which are used in Munster the same ways as the demonstratives (or demonstrative adjectives, if you prefer) seo, sin and siúd of other dialects.

I would be interested if you could point me to the examples you mention from Ó Sé and Ó Laoighre, of course, because that would seem to contradict my understanding of the usage of demonstrative adjectives in Munster dialects (which is more or less in line with what is stated on the Munster Irish wiki).

Ó GhChDh:

léifidh so é
a n-athair sin, is mó cliabh feamnaí a chuir san aníos i gCuas Buí
tá na hamhráin aige, ach ní déarfaidh súd aon amhrán
ach níor thuig súd é
bhí súd leis ag fant ann
déarfainn go múinfidh so é
bhí san luath go maith
ní dhéanfaidh san an gnó
tairriceom amach anois é is éadromóidh san é
is deacair iad a chur as a chéile, is deacair san

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I'm an intermediate speaker of the Corca Dhuibhne dialect of Irish and also have knowledge on the old spelling
Soir gaċ síar, fé ḋeireaḋ thíar