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PostPosted: Sun 19 May 2024 2:48 pm 
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What --> Cad
Where --> cá

where is the --> Cá bhfuil an
What is the --> Cad é an

Can somebody explain why "is the" is translated differently in each circumstance?

Thanks a ton


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PostPosted: Sun 19 May 2024 3:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
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msv133 wrote:
What --> Cad
Where --> cá

where is the --> Cá bhfuil an
What is the --> Cad é an

Can somebody explain why "is the" is translated differently in each circumstance?

Thanks a ton


Ca bhfuil an - this uses the verb táim
cad é an - this uses the copula

But this is not the correct way to learn Irish. You need to get a grammar book and work your way through, and then you will get into the copula in the appropriate chapter. A good option is this: https://archive.org/details/TeachYourse ... 1/mode/2up


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PostPosted: Sun 19 May 2024 4:36 pm 
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Joined: Thu 22 Dec 2011 6:28 am
Posts: 404
Location: Corcaigh
msv133 wrote:
What --> Cad
Where --> cá

where is the --> Cá bhfuil an
What is the --> Cad é an

Can somebody explain why "is the" is translated differently in each circumstance?

Thanks a ton


Just because various questions in English use the formula "X is the Y?", doesn't mean the same formulae are used in other languages as in English. So, questions that appear similar in English, may not be in Irish.

Often it helps to get a more literal translation so you can understand what is going on in the phrase. While the following is very bad English, this is what the Irish is literally saying.

Cá bhfuil an = where is the
Cad é an = what it the

In the first case, as dj has said, the verb "to be" is used. As such, the translation is literally quite close to the english.

In the second case, I don't know if I'd agree with dj that this uses the copula, rather, the interrogative "cad" implies the copula. But this is just grammatical semantics. Either way, this formation does not use the verb "to be". It does have a pronoun, so allowing for the implied copula a more idiomatic, but still literal way to render it in English might be "what (is) it the".

As a rule of thumb, the verb "to be" is typically restricted for use with non-permanent states of being. A similar distinction exists between Spanish ser and estar. The verb "to be" is used with because being somewhere is not permanent. You could conceivably "be" somewhere else later. The copula, implied or otherwise, is typically used in more perminant statements; X is ainm dom "X is my name", Is as Éireann mé "I am from Ireland". There are, of course, exceptions to this rule, but the point to take away is that it would have been inappropriate to use the verb "to be" in the second question because what it "is" is not a changable thing.


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PostPosted: Sun 19 May 2024 4:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue 07 May 2024 3:50 pm
Posts: 57
Thanks ADE, the literal translation helped alot. Some of the other stuff you said went over my head haha.

Thank you DJWebb, the link you gave me looks like an awesome book! I don't like reading things on the screen for very long, but I'll download this PDF if it's free after I make an account.

You guys are bosses!!


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PostPosted: Sun 19 May 2024 11:58 pm 
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Joined: Thu 22 Dec 2011 6:28 am
Posts: 404
Location: Corcaigh
msv133 wrote:
Thanks ADE, the literal translation helped alot. Some of the other stuff you said went over my head haha.


I'm glad it was helpful. If you're having trouble with some of the grammatical concepts and terminology, like verbs, the copula, and pronouns, then I suggest the same thing dj did. You should seek out an Irish grammar book and have a read through it. The one he suggested is very good. Unfortunately it's out of print. so unless you're happy to use online resources it can be a bit difficult to get a hold of. I've also found this book to be very good for its explanation of the basic, general rules of Irish grammar. It makes everything very clear and easily palatable.


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PostPosted: Mon 20 May 2024 6:23 pm 
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Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1734
msv133 wrote:
What --> Cad
Where --> cá

where is the --> Cá bhfuil an
What is the --> Cad é an

Can somebody explain why "is the" is translated differently in each circumstance?

Thanks a ton


First: Different verbs (bí vs. copula is)

Second: But even with the same verb there are different forms:
Cá bhfuil an (fear) = where is the (man)
Cad atá an (fear a scríobh)= what is the (man writing)

is a combination of cá/ca (which means not more than wh...) and the indirect relative particle a
Because an indirect relative clause follows with the force of a local adverbial clause, cá means "where" here.
The indirect relative particle requires a dependent verb form, in this case (verb bí) it is fuil, eclipsed bhfuil,
So: Cá bhfuil = Where is ... ("wh... that(indir) is")

Cad atá ... is cad (what) with the direct relative particle a + the independent verb form of bí, (a+tá combined for etym. reasons)

Cad é an ... The verb (actually not really a verb but a particle) here is is
As well as tá and fuil it means "is" but it is used in quite different circumstances, esp. in classifications (the X is a Y) or identifications (the X = the Y) combining two nouns.
And "is" is usually understood in questions with cé, cad etc. And there is no relative clause (as with cá+a bhfuil, cad atá)
Cad é an, lit. "what[-is] he the ..."
é is necessary because there has to be a pronoun (é or í or iad) between copula (...[-is]) and the definite subject or predicate noun (an ...).
Compare: Is é an múinteoir an fear = The man is the teacher. (as well with a pronoun é = he)


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