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PostPosted: Sun 22 Nov 2020 6:41 pm 
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Hello, I was just wondering... how is the name 'Shane' spelt in the Irish Language?
It seems hard to find an answer.

I've seen a few suggestions, some mentioned it's spelt 'Seáin''... is this true?

Has the fada always historically remained on the letter a and supposed to stay that way, without shifting on to the letter e?

Also, is it true that the Sh-ayn sound comes from the Ulster pronunciation of Sh-awn... and the two names are only different because of a slight variation in accent?

All replies and suggestions are greatly appreciated. thanks...


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PostPosted: Sun 22 Nov 2020 8:19 pm 
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theshining wrote:
Hello, I was just wondering... how is the name 'Shane' spelt in the Irish Language?
It seems hard to find an answer.

I've seen a few suggestions, some mentioned it's spelt 'Seáin''... is this true?

Almost.
It is Seán

Seáin is plural (Shanes = Seáin)
Sheáin is vocative and genitive (a Sheáin! = Shane!, teach Sheáin = Shane’s house)

theshining wrote:
Has the fada always historically remained on the letter a and supposed to stay that way, without shifting on to the letter e?

Yes.
séan means sign, omen, good luck, happiness

theshining wrote:
Also, is it true that the Sh-ayn sound comes from the Ulster pronunciation of Sh-awn... and the two names are only different because of a slight variation in accent?

Yes.


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PostPosted: Sun 22 Nov 2020 9:14 pm 
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What I find amusing is when they give the name of the famous James Bond actor - Seán Connery - without the fada or accent, it means 'old' Connery. He was born in Embra but his name is Irish. Shane is the Ulster pronunciation, so the spelling in Irish stays the same regardless of whether it's Shawn or Shane. It used to be spelt Seaghan and this form derives from the Norman French - Jehan. There is also Eoin which is the equivalent of Ian/Iain/Owen/Ewan and which is probably older.


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PostPosted: Mon 23 Nov 2020 3:39 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:

Almost.
It is Seán

Seáin is plural (Shanes = Seáin)
Sheáin is vocative and genitive (a Sheáin! = Shane!, teach Sheáin = Shane’s house)

Yes.
séan means sign, omen, good luck, happiness

theshining wrote:
Also, is it true that the Sh-ayn sound comes from the Ulster pronunciation of Sh-awn... and the two names are only different because of a slight variation in accent?

Yes.[/quote]

Thanks for much. This is such helpful information, especially the vocative/genitive part.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Nov 2020 12:12 am 
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theshining wrote:

Also, is it true that the Sh-ayn sound comes from the Ulster pronunciation of Sh-awn... and the two names are only different because of a slight variation in accent?

..


I'm not quite sure what you mean.
The anglicized forms 'Shawn/Shaun' would be pronounced the same in Ulster as anywhere else in the English-speaking world and the same is true for the anglicized form 'Shane'.

If you're referring to the pronunciation of the Original Irish form 'Seán', in Ulster Irish (i.e. Donegal), it's pronounced 'Shen' (rhymes with 'men') in at least two of the most important Irish-speaking areas, and as 'Shan' (rhymes with 'man') in others. To my knowledge it's not pronounced as 'Shane/Shayne' (as in 'lane') anywhere.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Nov 2020 1:48 pm 
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Errigal wrote:
I'm not quite sure what you mean.
The anglicized forms 'Shawn/Shaun' would be pronounced the same in Ulster as anywhere else in the English-speaking world and the same is true for the anglicized form 'Shane'.

If you're referring to the pronunciation of the Original Irish form 'Seán', in Ulster Irish (i.e. Donegal), it's pronounced 'Shen' (rhymes with 'men') in at least two of the most important Irish-speaking areas, and as 'Shan' (rhymes with 'man') in others. To my knowledge it's not pronounced as 'Shane/Shayne' (as in 'lane') anywhere.


Ok, thanks for the explanation. I understand what you're saying. I've heard the Shan/Shen pronunciation you're referring to as well. But then how did the Sh-ayn pronunciation come about... if its not pronounced this way anywhere? It's just I heard that in the North-East part of Ulster, the 'shen' sound changes slightly to more of an 'ayn' sound.

How did places like Broughshane get its name? Perhaps the natives in the area have once pronounced it with the 'ayn' sound... I am wondering??


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Nov 2020 5:32 pm 
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theshining wrote:
Errigal wrote:
I'm not quite sure what you mean.
The anglicized forms 'Shawn/Shaun' would be pronounced the same in Ulster as anywhere else in the English-speaking world and the same is true for the anglicized form 'Shane'.

If you're referring to the pronunciation of the Original Irish form 'Seán', in Ulster Irish (i.e. Donegal), it's pronounced 'Shen' (rhymes with 'men') in at least two of the most important Irish-speaking areas, and as 'Shan' (rhymes with 'man') in others. To my knowledge it's not pronounced as 'Shane/Shayne' (as in 'lane') anywhere.


Ok, thanks for the explanation. I understand what you're saying. I've heard the Shan/Shen pronunciation you're referring to as well. But then how did the Sh-ayn pronunciation come about... if its not pronounced this way anywhere? It's just I heard that in the North-East part of Ulster, the 'shen' sound changes slightly to more of an 'ayn' sound.

How did places like Broughshane get its name? Perhaps the natives in the area have once pronounced it with the 'ayn' sound... I am wondering??


Such diphthongizations are typically English. English speakers are fond of diphthongs.
Places like Broughshane (and all Shanes) got their name through English.
Shane is an English language name.
The Irish name is Seán. :)

á is (often) pronounced /æ:/ in Ulster ("Shan"), in some areas even /ɛ​:/ ("Shen") but never ever* /ɛ​ı/ ("Shane") - except in English.



* (I heard Irish speakers in some audio courses providing a slow educative pronunciation using funny diphthongs for the sake of "clearness" but speaking good Irish (i.e. without such sounds) elsewhere.)


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Nov 2020 10:44 pm 
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Irish names are rarely pronounced correctly by English speakers. So Shane is just English speakers thinking they're saying it the Ulster way because they couldn't be arsed to say it correctly.

Just to reiterate what was said earlier:
You must have the accent, and have the accent on the correct letter, otherwise you have a totally different word and different meaning.


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PostPosted: Wed 25 Nov 2020 2:22 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
Irish names are rarely pronounced correctly by English speakers. So Shane is just English speakers thinking they're saying it the Ulster way because they couldn't be arsed to say it correctly. Just to reiterate what was said earlier:
You must have the accent, and have the accent on the correct letter, otherwise you have a totally different word and different meaning.


I think I understand. So I've learned,...

1. Seán is the true, original spelling of the name in the Irish Language
2. Shen and Shan is the Ulster pronunciation of that name
3. The Sh-ayn sound is a British invention.

Yes... it makes sense. i am aware too that the fada must only be on the letter 'a' for the name. thnx


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PostPosted: Wed 25 Nov 2020 2:33 pm 
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Labhrás wrote:
Such diphthongizations are typically English. English speakers are fond of diphthongs.
Places like Broughshane (and all Shanes) got their name through English.
Shane is an English language name.
The Irish name is Seán. :)

á is (often) pronounced /æ:/ in Ulster ("Shan"), in some areas even /ɛ​:/ ("Shen") but never ever* /ɛ​ı/ ("Shane") - except in English.

* (I heard Irish speakers in some audio courses providing a slow educative pronunciation using funny diphthongs for the sake of "clearness" but speaking good Irish (i.e. without such sounds) elsewhere.)


Thanks for the clarification. The only reason i wondered about all of this is because an old article from about 1899 wrote " SEAGHÁN, pronounced in Derry and Omeath with much the same sound as è of Fr. père — ie. a lengthening of ĕ — so ea always in Leath Chuinn outside Donegal. The East Ulster pronunciation of Seaghán is evidenced in numerous other personal and place names"

I thought the author was saying the Ulster pronunciation slightly changes it from a Shen sound to a AYN sound. i found it hard to understand that article because it was so old, but i got some of it and you've explained a lot...


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